Help ID sound problem

[stubbsonic]

I've encountered this gritty noise with a Zoom MS-100BT, even when the signal is clean-- (no modules). It affects bass notes, but I've heard with low notes on guitar and similar notes on bass. I assumed that it was due to cheap AD conversion. I stopped using these pedals, because I need a clean sound.

Later, I tried a Mooer Radar (IR loader), similar kind of noise/distortion when the signal is clean, worse when there is amp sim turned on. I just returned it.

I recently got an SY-1000 which supposedly has this best-in-class ADC, high sampling, 24-bit. It's also getting rave reviews and it is a Boss product, so I expected decent specs. But I was disappointed to hear that this distorted sound is there, too.

Here's an example of it. I've done a little EQ so you can hear it more clearly.

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com/misc/NoiseExample.mp3

The signal is not clipped, not on meters and the waveform doesn't look clipped at all. Also the noise continues during the decay. Does anyone know what this might be caused by? Could it be something outside the pedal? Any ideas on how can I eliminate it?

UPDATE: This issue is all over my studio. I can hear it even when playing a ROM bass sample from my Kurzweil PC3. So it's either mental, or it's EMI, or dirty power, or ???

[HCMarkus]

I've encountered this gritty noise with a Zoom MS-100BT, even when the signal is clean-- (no modules). It affects bass notes, but I've heard with low notes on guitar and similar notes on bass. I assumed that it was due to cheap AD conversion. I stopped using these pedals, because I need a clean sound.

Later, I tried a Mooer Radar (IR loader), similar kind of noise/distortion when the signal is clean, worse when there is amp sim turned on. I just returned it.

I recently got an SY-1000 which supposedly has this best-in-class ADC, high sampling, 24-bit. It's also getting rave reviews and it is a Boss product, so I expected decent specs. But I was disappointed to hear that this distorted sound is there, too.

Here's an example of it. I've done a little EQ so you can hear it more clearly.

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com/misc/NoiseExample.mp3

The signal is not clipped, not on meters and the waveform doesn't look clipped at all. Also the noise continues during the decay. Does anyone know what this might be caused by? Could it be something outside the pedal? Any ideas on how can I eliminate it?

I know it is rudimentary, but first strip your chain down to bare minimum... can you get clean signal from your guitar or bass with nothing but a cable connecting the instrument to your audio interface?

Do your bass and guitar have active preamps? Old batteries will certainly cause this issue.

A loose or dirty connection or pot anywhere on your input chain (including your instrument or inside a preamp) can produce issues such as you are encountering. Test all cables you will need to connect everything to make sure the problem does not reside there. Then add pieces of gear one at a time.

If dirt is the issue, Caig DeOxit is the solution solution.

If you have vacuum tubes in your chain, re-seat, but you might need to replace one or more.

Back a few years ago, I thought my 828mkII was on its way out. Turned out the low level noise and distortion I was hearing originated with a bad tube in my UA LA-610 channel strip.

Good luck!

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I was thinking the same thing. Eliminate EVERYTHING in the chain that you can. The little bastard will rear his head when you connect it. lol

[stubbsonic]

Thanks for the help. This is a weird one.

My bass is all passive, so not a battery issue.

It is present when I play my guitar rather than my bass.

It is present when I plug my bass directly into my mixer -- so it's not the FX boxes (Pheew! but also Whaaa?)

It is present if I monitor the SY-1000 directly from the phones out. So it isn't the mixer either.

It is present with 3 different cables, all pretty nice cables on either bass or guitar.

I'm at a loss. I do feel like I've tried other gear that didn't have this issue. But now I'm questioning my sanity. (OK, that's an ongoing assessment.)

[mikehalloran]

Is there a usb cable in the signal chain anywhere?

Any balanced cables?

DeOxIt has cured similar gremlins in my signal chain.

[Tritonemusic]

Later, I tried a Mooer Radar (IR loader), similar kind of noise/distortion when the signal is clean, worse when there is amp sim turned on. I just returned it.

I just wanted you to know that I have a Mooer Radar and it definitely doesn't make any noise like that.

[stubbsonic]

There isn't any USB involved anywhere in this signal path. My FF800 audio interface is connected to my MBP via firewire adapter to thunderbolt. The FF800 is connected to the mixer (2 in 2 out) via TRS, but not is not in the signal path.

This distortion is present when going direct to the SY-1000, not connected to the mixer.

Thanks for confirming this issue isn't in the Mooer Radar. It must have been my misdiagnosed issue, and is probably not in the Zoom pedals either.

I know I have experienced clean signal from my bass and guitar, they are both pretty nice instruments and well maintained. So I just need to figure out what is going on. At this point, it seems like the only possible culprit is the cable-- or both instruments have something odd going on. What the heck?

Thanks for helping out, folks.

[stubbsonic]

I just tried my Kuzweil PC3 and played a ROM bass sample and it was there too. I can hear it more clearly with lower notes.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I just tried my Kuzweil PC3 and played a ROM bass sample and it was there too. I can hear it more clearly with lower notes.

Hey Stubby,

It would seem fairly straight forward to remove everything from the audio chain and start adding back in until the distortion is present. How extensive is that chain? Have you done that? I'd start with the modules (I have a Kurzweil PC2, btw - love it and just rediscovered bank 6 -great patches in there, but I digress).

There has to be a link that is causing this problem. I'm surprised it hasn't shown itself yet. Maybe it's time to tear the studio apart?

[HCMarkus]

Maybe it's time to tear the studio apart?

This.

Exercising every physical connection in the studio, whether one uses something like Caig Labs DeOxit or not, will burnish conductors' contact points.

I was heading toward a suggestion that instrument pickups might be set too close to the strings until Stubbs noted the issue being present with the noted sampled instruments.

[mikehalloran]

Maybe it's time to tear the studio apart?

This.

Exercising every physical connection in the studio, whether one uses something like Caig Labs DeOxit or not, will burnish conductors' contact points. …

It was during a similar tear down and rebuild that I discovered

a) defective cards in my Equator D5s
b) mine was one of the few studios that actually benefited from star-quad cables (If you can’t hear it, you don’ need them)
c) my old Behringer monitor controller had become a noisy POS
d) my JBL sub performed far better with a mono, unbalanced feed (!?!?!) didn’t see that one coming

It’s possible that something took out my Behringer and D5s. The other issues were always there. It took some time to figure it all out. Balanced cables made the D5s quieter but not enough, same with installing a passive Radial controller. I had already ordered the D8s and after installing, was able to A/B each stage to determine that there really were three different problems.

I then sent the D5s out for repair and the crossover/DSP cards were bad. I sold them after I got them back. Equator told me that the replacement cards were “improved” as are the ones in my D8 IIs. Now that they’re out of business, I hope these stay good but I’ve had these 5 years or so.

The issue with my sub was the first time I ran into the balanced cable from a mono source performance issue (controller has a mono feed to the sub). It’s a problem with the M4 and all the new USB interfaces as well. I eventually had Markertek/SESCOM make a star quad mono cable for that. They make custom cables for the same price or far less than so-called boutique cabling.

My controller started exhibiting the “gravelly” sound another member complained of (was that you, Wonder?). A shot of DeOxIt into each of the jacks fixed that up and the noise never came back.

[stubbsonic]

Thanks, all.

At this point, because I've been in these little closed systems, instruments connected directly to FX units and headphone outs, or the direct headphone out of PC3 directly, different headphones, etc.- I'm wondering about some low-frequency noise in the power.

I'm going to take some gear off site at some point and see if plugging in at some other place cleans things up.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Thanks, all.

At this point, because I've been in these little closed systems, instruments connected directly to FX units and headphone outs, or the direct headphone out of PC3 directly, different headphones, etc.- I'm wondering about some low-frequency noise in the power.

I'm going to take some gear off site at some point and see if plugging in at some other place cleans things up.

I HATE problems like this, but I LOVE when they get fixed. Good luck.

[stubbsonic]

I HATE problems like this, but I LOVE when they get fixed. Good luck.

Yea, that's what I needed to hear. It'll just take some time and more careful methods.

Step one is to bring a couple units across town to a studio I have access to and see what shakes out there.

I looked on a spectrum analyzer, and apart from a tone at 8K (probably my monitor getting picked up by my bass), nothing too unusual.