Can someone please remind me of this tech term and examples?

Discussions about composing, arranging, orchestration, songwriting, theory, etc...

Moderators: Frodo, FMiguelez, MIDI Life Crisis

Forum rules
Discussions about composing, arranging, orchestration, songwriting, theory and the art of creating music in all forms from orchestral film scores to pop/rock.
User avatar
FMiguelez
Posts: 8266
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Body: Narco-México Soul/Heart: NYC

Can someone please remind me of this tech term and examples?

Post by FMiguelez »

Hello!

I'm nowhere near my FS college notes, so please remind me.... What's the proper term for source music (say, a mariachi band) that gets "taken" by the actual score? The score may start commenting on the source music or incorporate it and twist it alla Ives for great dramatic effect. What is it called?

And more importantly, I remember there are some very beautiful and creative examples of this in the film music literature, but I can't think of any at the moment :? Any movie/scene examples that jump to mind? I know there are some hard-core film lovers in here :)

Thank you guys!
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
User avatar
stubbsonic
Posts: 4650
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:56 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Can someone please remind me of this tech term and examp

Post by stubbsonic »

In school we would just refer to it as "quoting", but I'm also (barely) familiar with the term "detournément"-- but that definition has other connotations.
M1 MBP; OS 12, FF800, DP 11.3, Kontakt 7, Reaktor 6, PC3K7, K2661S, iPad6, Godin XTSA, Two Ibanez 5 string basses (1 fretted, 1 fretless), FM3, SY-1000, etc.

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com
User avatar
cuttime
Posts: 4305
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: Can someone please remind me of this tech term and examp

Post by cuttime »

Quodlibet?
828x MacOS 13.6.6 M1 Studio Max 1TB 64G DP11.31
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Can someone please remind me of this tech term and examp

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Infringement?
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
User avatar
FMiguelez
Posts: 8266
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Body: Narco-México Soul/Heart: NYC

Re: Can someone please remind me of this tech term and examp

Post by FMiguelez »

stubbsonic wrote:In school we would just refer to it as "quoting", but I'm also (barely) familiar with the term "detournément"-- but that definition has other connotations.
Thanks, Stubbs.
It's something like that conceptually, but those names don't ring a bell... It's probably a fastidious term, but I'd like to know it before talking to the director so he gets the idea (with examples).
cuttime wrote:Quodlibet?
Thanks, cuttime. Probably not as deep.
Something like "dual or simultaneous" music perhaps?

I think it's in the In The Track book with examples and everything, but I don't have access to my book now. It's like I have a couple of examples of scenes with that treatment in the back of my mind but I can't bring them to the forefront. :(
MIDI Life Crisis wrote:Infringement?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

There's this music scene that closes the movie. It's the final love scene, but it starts with traditional mariachis playing (hopelessly badly) some traditional folk song as a "love serenata", and then the girl forgives the guy and runs to his arms and they live happily ever after.
The idea is to take the folk theme and (somehow) evolve it and turn it and twist it until it leads back to MY main love theme, with big orchestra and everything for the final drama, while perhaps keeping some of the folk flavour.
Of course, any necessary licensing or permissions for arrangements would be dealt with. But I doubt these old traditional folk songs are still copyright protected... I'll check, of course.

Please let me know if a scene like that from any movie comes to your mind from memory. Thanks! :)

BTW, the folk songs are "La cucaracha" (literally :roll: ) and then "La Adelita" (much better), in case you know them.
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
User avatar
FMiguelez
Posts: 8266
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Body: Narco-México Soul/Heart: NYC

Re: Can someone please remind me of this tech term and examp

Post by FMiguelez »

Actually, Mike, you did something similar in concept a lot of years ago with that extremely cool piece you created out of the Mexican Anthem, remember?

I don't remember what the visuals were, but I certainly remember how you elegantly dealt with its leitmotifs and played around to great effect mingled with your own original stuff!
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Can someone please remind me of this tech term and examp

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

FMiguelez wrote:Actually, Mike, you did something similar in concept a lot of years ago with that extremely cool piece you created out of the Mexican Anthem, remember?

I don't remember what the visuals were, but I certainly remember how you elegantly dealt with its leitmotifs and played around to great effect mingled with your own original stuff!
You are correct. Watch it while you can. It's an infringing YouTube with my score and shall be removed shortly. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZKVQmpZnis
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
User avatar
cuttime
Posts: 4305
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: Can someone please remind me of this tech term and examp

Post by cuttime »

I'd call it a "quote" then? One of my favorite examples is "The Minstrel Boy" and the score from "The Man who would be King" by Maurice Jarre. In the movie "The Minstrel Boy" is sung (badly) by Michael Caine and Sean Connery, but I don't think that part is on the OST album:

https://youtu.be/0ssHxZABrpE

https://youtu.be/90Rg9vdU8Hg
828x MacOS 13.6.6 M1 Studio Max 1TB 64G DP11.31
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Can someone please remind me of this tech term and examp

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Hope you got to see it’ FM. It’s been removed from YT. Sorry suckers. An artist never sells his wares on the street. Lol.
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
User avatar
FMiguelez
Posts: 8266
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Body: Narco-México Soul/Heart: NYC

Re: Can someone please remind me of this tech term and examp

Post by FMiguelez »

cuttime wrote:I'd call it a "quote" then? One of my favorite examples is "The Minstrel Boy" and the score from "The Man who would be King" by Maurice Jarre. In the movie "The Minstrel Boy" is sung (badly) by Michael Caine and Sean Connery, but I don't think that part is on the OST album:

https://youtu.be/0ssHxZABrpE

https://youtu.be/90Rg9vdU8Hg
Nice example, cuttime. Thanks!
MIDI Life Crisis wrote:Hope you got to see it’ FM. It’s been removed from YT. Sorry suckers. An artist never sells his wares on the street. Lol.
That was quick!
Yes, I got to see it.
My favourite part is right after you stated the anthem for the 1st time verbatim, where you really start "playing" and twisting it. It sounds like the development section of a sonata. Very Beethovenesque :)

You mentioned it, so now I have to pick your brain a little... let me ask you>
I hear Universal and all the big boys have their entire catalogues in YouTube monetized, and they're watching like hawks for infringements, to the point of sometimes ridiculously abusing the system, as many YouTubers report. Is this your case with the studio owner of the film? (for the former part of the question).

---> I don't know who the studio owner of your movie is, so I assume> Because of your wording, it sounds to me like the link you provided is to some guy's channel who somehow got hold of the movie and uploaded it there illegally. You and whoever owns the movie are not happy because they did it without permission and perhaps he's stealing (cents) from you and them if he monetised it. But the studio owner DOES have a YouTube channel where people can see it and earns them and you some money, yes?
Did I get it right?

Or is none of your silent movie work in YT legally for some reason? I assume your earnings come mostly (after years now) from performance royalties or movie soundtrack sales perhaps?
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Can someone please remind me of this tech term and examp

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

That’s a whole other discussion. In short, most of what I score is PD. If there is any claim on the images it’s from people restoring except in very few cases. That doesn’t stop them from threatening infringement claims but I’m pretty sure they’d never prevail in court. You can’t recopyright a PD work.

I own my music for all my works. I license it for distribution. Most composers I know only own the writer’s share. I never agree to buyouts. I would, but they’d have to start at mid 6 figures. So I defend my copyrights. As for income streams, they are from various sources.
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
User avatar
FMiguelez
Posts: 8266
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Body: Narco-México Soul/Heart: NYC

Re: Can someone please remind me of this tech term and examp

Post by FMiguelez »

So Mike, you mean you keep your usual writer's share PLUS the Editor's share (publishing?), so for those purposes you ARE your own editor (publishing house)... Did I get you correctly?

If so, you're blessed, my friend, as I've ALWAYS had to give up the publishing (editor's share) for the publishing houses that are part of the TV networks that air the shows. Some are like vultures and do absolutely nothing to deserve taking half my royalty earnings. But the writer's share is all mine, of course.

Do you ALWAYS work like that? Have you ever had to give up the publisher's share at all, or is it one of your contract conditions?

Thanks for this info, Mike. Very very useful.
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Can someone please remind me of this tech term and examp

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

I've always worked like that. I started composing professionally in 1977. First musical in July. Then a second in October, but the second one was infringed on off-Broadway. Yes, I prevailed in that action. ;) But ever since I have been steadfast in my belief that my music is worth protecting, for one, but also that if someone wants to use it they do NOT own it. They lease it. I write most of my own contracts and have never had an agent of manager. Don't need 'em. lol.

It's also important to remember that I generally write what some might call "art" music. More broadly, I write predominantly for live performance or specialized genres, such as dance. theater, art installations, and - duh! - silent films. None of these folks are interested in collecting royalties from my work (unlike the vulture TV and big film distributers).

How important is that? It's effing critical, IMO. I have only one "work for hire" contract out there and those folks aren't interested in the publishers share. Their stuff gets on the TV machine about once a year. But everything else, including my catalogue with the Academy of Motion Pictures, is 100% mine.

Warner Bros. inadvertently received a minute of my music about 15 years ago and, unknowingly, placed it on a major DVD release. Had I not owned my publisher's share, I would have been out of luck in terms of recovering licensing. In the end it took about 6 months (which held up the DVD release) but the company supplying the material ended up paying dearly for that one minute of music. I won't tell you directly how much it cost them, but suffice it to say that at that rate, for 60 minutes of music, would be well over $1.5M. Damn, why didn't they steal more! lol

But there's another component to my madness: integrity. I'm not opposed to a buyout, but it has to be equitable (read: lucrative). None of this backend BS or "half to them, half to me." The royalties are for the publisher and the writer, not half to the distributer and half to "everybody else." I produce my work in my studio (or in a theater, soundstage, etc). It is MY product produced at MY expense. Beyond that, if anyone wants to use it they can lease it. Period.

I know... if you want to play with the "big boys" you gotta jump thru their hoops., at least if you want to establish yourself as a composer (don't even get me started on the stupid "apprentice composer" stuff that goes on in LA). Those are games I will not play. Maybe, if I got desperate, I'd consider that. Fortunately, I have never wanted for work since 1977, but am I blessed? Well, I'd have to believe in a god first, but no, I'm not blessed. I'm a stubborn Sicilian and will not have my work hijacked by what is essentially a corrupt system. If they want my music, they'll come to me - and they do. Also, don't play bars and weddings or anywhere people are eating except for popcorn in a theater.

And then there's the late night comedy gigs. A whole other world of fun. ;)

Be well, FM. Wear you mask!
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
User avatar
FMiguelez
Posts: 8266
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Body: Narco-México Soul/Heart: NYC

Re: Can someone please remind me of this tech term and examp

Post by FMiguelez »

Thank you for taking the time to write all that. You inspire me, my friend!
I'll use that as an ideal to reach for when possible. But like you said, with TV networks who also own the publishing house, there's just no way around giving up the publishing share. Else they go to guy #356 down the list of composers begging for a chance.

Actually, this gig I just got is my first movie ever. I'm in the negotiating stage with the producer. Actually, we're supposed to do a video conference soon to talk about the business side, so I'll keep your model in mind and see if I can get it like that.

I'll let you know how it goes!

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:...but am I blessed? Well, I'd have to believe in a god first, but no, I'm not blessed.
OMG! I can't believe I used that word. I thought it was out of my vocabulary, but sometimes the remnants still show after all this time...
MIDI Life Crisis wrote:I know... if you want to play with the "big boys" you gotta jump thru their hoops., at least if you want to establish yourself as a composer (don't even get me started on the stupid "apprentice composer" stuff that goes on in LA). Those are games I will not play.
You mean the blatant ghost-writing, or something else?

If so, I can imagine. Not long ago I read about a HUGE scandal between 2 famous and accomplished TV composers from a very popular TV show... It was ugly! I don't think I know how it all ended. Not good, I suppose.
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Can someone please remind me of this tech term and examp

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

I guess if I could put it all in a simple way: I refuse to be a bottom feeder. And yes, the ghost writing thing. Don’t forget: large bills only, please. And plenty of ‘em. Don’t be afraid to say no. People often want what they can’t have.
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
Post Reply