Logic 10.5 vs DP 10.1

[Michael Canavan]

Oh one last thing, that iPad app is cool but brutally expensive. This is what interests me when I think about Logic's articulation mappings. I just think they should have included this without it being third party.
https://www.babylonwaves.com

[dewdman42]

Logic built an empire on top of a system that allows only by channel input to software instruments,

That is not factually correct. Logic only goes by channel from the MIDI controller into the sequencer for recording to tracks. When you are playing back tracks through to the software instruments there are most definitely ports and channels just like everyone else.

It's certainly no reason to get offended.

Sir, there is a very big difference between pointing out your confusion and incorrect explanation of LogicPro as a possibility that you might not be that expert at it, which would explain your frustration.....vs calling someone "indoctrinated". Go get some manners for our next discussion. Or maybe I will just ignore you from now on because you are not fun to talk to.

good night.

[BWidemann]

In DP, seeing the VI as a "track" merely serves to see it in the mixing board, as the console has a one-to-one match with the tracks. The same goes with the VCAs, there is no proper cause to handle them as a track, they are mere additions to the mixer.

In the mixing board, however, VCAs and instruments make complete sense as separate entities. The audio effects apply to the instrument, while the MIDI effects apply to the MIDI track. The equivalent in Logic is far to be that consistent, even if most features are there.

[BWidemann]

You are conflating topics. Forget V-Racks. Just built a friggin instrument track that hosts both the MIDI region and the plugin hosting in one track. It can be chunk able. Done.

I don't understand this. Many instruments can handle several channels, hence more than one track. It doesn't make sense to me.

[nk_e]

It is very true. Only, it is also flexible, because a single instrument can be fed more than one MIDI track at the same time, which saves resources when you begin to work with takes and bits and pieces moved around and copy-paste-repeated. I find that Logic's way to bundle the instrument into the MIDI track is kind of confusing, because an instance of instrument is not the same thing as a MIDI track, definitely. I find DP's presentation closer to the actual thing.

Just to clarify. LogicPro can do what you are asking about also. More then one track can be assigned to the same instrument channel. Just like in DP. The only difference is that its being routed to a "channel" rather then to another track. Myself I do not find it "intuitive" in DP to have one track with regions and another track without any regions, but hosting the plugin. That is actually the counter-intuitive thing if you really think about it. DP does provide V-Racks, which is more similar to the LogicPro approach, because in a V-Rack you basically are adding channels, without tracks...more like LogicPro's default approach.

I wonder why LPX (or anyone else for that matter) has not tried to implement a version of Chunks. It’s a brilliant feature. Since DAWs seem to “borrow” ideas so liberally from each other, I’m really perplexed as to why no has “borrowed” this idea.

[dewdman42]

I agree. Chunks are totally unique to DP and an awesome feature. I guess Reaper has something called sub projects which might be similar. But does reaper count? Not for me.

[Michael Canavan]

Logic built an empire on top of a system that allows only by channel input to software instruments,

That is not factually correct. Logic only goes by channel from the MIDI controller into the sequencer for recording to tracks. When you are playing back tracks through to the software instruments there are most definitely ports and channels just like everyone else.

Sure internally, but when you address it from the outside world you're stuck with by channel separation only. Why even call it port if it's not addressing an actual hardware device? Logics internal bussing is not limited by 16 MIDI channels, yes that's true, but the way it talks to hardware is.

Like I said this gets in the way of things like being able to play a Roli or other MPE device along with another MIDI controller keyboard, since the MPE device eats all 16 channels.

Also you keep on calling Mixer type devices without tracks attached (like V-Racks or Logics Klopgeist etc. )channels. This must be a Logic naming convention, but it's conflating and confusing our discussion on MIDI, since ports and channels are the default naming convention there.

[Michael Canavan]

I wonder why LPX (or anyone else for that matter) has not tried to implement a version of Chunks. It’s a brilliant feature. Since DAWs seem to “borrow” ideas so liberally from each other, I’m really perplexed as to why no has “borrowed” this idea.

Mostly DAWs have imitated the "open" Sequences in the same Project part of Chunks. In Bitwig you can have tabbed open projects, and you can import from an open project etc. Logic has the same in versions of a project. None of them are really that much like Chunks though, they all are not really loaded in the same open Projects like Chunks can be. It's probably a "DNA" level coding issue where it would take far too much time and effort to implement at DPs level without knowing whether or not that comes back to you in sales.

[dewdman42]

Regarding the MIDI timestamping issue when chaining MIDI plugins in DP, I just ran a quick test to remind myself exactly what happens with DP. As I thought, DP throws away region timestamps when chaining MIDI tracks in order to process with MIDI plugins, as I explained. Here are some details..

I setup the following chain using BlueCatAudio PluginNScript VST plugin for logging MIDI events, including their sample time stamp:

Code: Select all

MIDI track-->inst track with BCA Script-->MIDI track-->inst track with BCA script

Note events recorded on the first MIDI track.

What we should expect during play is that the BCA logging script should show the same sample timestamps in both plugin instances....the timestamp that was indicated by the original placement of the note event in the region. Unfortunately, the second logging script at the end of the MIDI chain has bumped up the sample timestamp to a later point of time in each case.

Log1:

Code: Select all

SamplePos: 00054115 Timestamp: 00000 Note On  60 Vel: 109 on Ch.1 (144/60/109)
SamplePos: 00054627 Timestamp: 00000 Note On  59 Vel: 109 on Ch.1 (144/59/109)
SamplePos: 00059235 Timestamp: 00000 Note Off 59 Vel: 11 on Ch.1 (128/59/11)

Log2:

Code: Select all

SamplePos: 00055651 Timestamp: 00000 Note On  60 Vel: 109 on Ch.1 (144/60/109)
SamplePos: 00055651 Timestamp: 00000 Note On  59 Vel: 109 on Ch.1 (144/59/109)
SamplePos: 00055651 Timestamp: 00000 Note Off 59 Vel: 0 on Ch.1 (128/59/0)

you can also see that this process introduces jitter, most likely related to the process block size. Each MIDI track on input, re-stamps the incoming MIDI events to the current process block, thus losing the original timestamp, and introducing some amount of jitter quantized to the process block size.

This same kind of problem happens with Cubase as well. StudioOne did not have this problem, it had other MIDI plugin problems though.

LogicPro does not have this problem because its not necessary to chain up MIDI tracks for MIDI plugin processing.

[Michael Canavan]

I agree. Chunks are totally unique to DP and an awesome feature. I guess R••••• has something called sub projects which might be similar. But does R••••• count? Not for me.

Sub Projects are basically flattened projects that can be heard in the open project, in that sense it’s really not the same, to work in them you have to un flatten them. akins of a cool idea, but not really as useful as Chunks.

[Michael Canavan]

Regarding the MIDI timestamping issue when chaining MIDI plugins in DP, I just ran a quick test to remind myself exactly what happens with DP. As I thought, DP throws away region timestamps when chaining MIDI tracks in order to process with MIDI plugins, as I explained. Here are some details..

I setup the following chain using BlueCatAudio PluginNScript VST plugin for logging MIDI events, including their sample time stamp:

Code: Select all

MIDI track-->inst track with BCA Script-->MIDI track-->inst track with BCA script

Note events recorded on the first MIDI track.

What we should expect during play is that the BCA logging script should show the same sample timestamps in both plugin instances....the timestamp that was indicated by the original placement of the note event in the region. Unfortunately, the second logging script at the end of the MIDI chain has bumped up the sample timestamp to a later point of time in each case.

Log1:

Code: Select all

SamplePos: 00054115 Timestamp: 00000 Note On  60 Vel: 109 on Ch.1 (144/60/109)
SamplePos: 00054627 Timestamp: 00000 Note On  59 Vel: 109 on Ch.1 (144/59/109)
SamplePos: 00059235 Timestamp: 00000 Note Off 59 Vel: 11 on Ch.1 (128/59/11)

Log2:

Code: Select all

SamplePos: 00055651 Timestamp: 00000 Note On  60 Vel: 109 on Ch.1 (144/60/109)
SamplePos: 00055651 Timestamp: 00000 Note On  59 Vel: 109 on Ch.1 (144/59/109)
SamplePos: 00055651 Timestamp: 00000 Note Off 59 Vel: 0 on Ch.1 (128/59/0)

you can also see that this process introduces jitter, most likely related to the process block size. Each MIDI track on input, re-stamps the incoming MIDI events to the current process block, thus losing the original timestamp, and introducing some amount of jitter quantized to the process block size.

This same kind of problem happens with Cubase as well. StudioOne did not have this problem, it had other MIDI plugin problems though.

LogicPro does not have this problem because its not necessary to chain up MIDI tracks for MIDI plugin processing.

Worth submitting to MOTU, I doubt they’re aware of it since a large percentage of their user base is still using AU mostly.

[Henry Robinett]

I’m just now leaving DP and going to Logic and out PT. I own them both. I have had massive problems with DP over the past year that has not been addressed. I thought it was Apple. And it could be you know, but they’re the big ocean that all the big and small fish developers have to accommodate. I got the new Mac Pro 16 core 7,1 160 in December. And it’s been nothing but headaches ever since. I thought it was my interface- Metric Halo ULN-8, but the developer has been working with me closely. Actually Apple loaned him a machine exactly like mine to figure it out. DP cpu spokes at absolutely nothing. Causes overloads. I had a session crash and burn yesterday. My last straw. So far MOTU has not been responsive to my support requests. They have in the past. Not yet today. Several hours. 9 to be more precise.

So I’ve been with MOTU since before they called it MOTU. Performer 1.2. DP 2.7. Ive always been a ardent defender. But I gotta bail. I have to admit it’s a prosumer product. I know I’m probably a corner case but it has been going on for a long time. Apple and MH have done a lot to figure it out. All indications point to MOTU who has done nothing.

Sorry. I loved DP but I’ve had nothing but problems. Hell, the PRIMARY REASON I got this massive MP was to fix the DP problems I was having. It was the wrong target.


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[dewdman42]

I’m just now leaving DP and going to Logic and out PT. I own them both. I have had massive problems with DP over the past year that has not been addressed. I thought it was Apple. And it could be you know, but they’re the big ocean that all the big and small fish developers have to accommodate. I got the new Mac Pro 16 core 7,1 160 in December. And it’s been nothing but headaches ever since. I thought it was my interface- Metric Halo ULN-8, but the developer has been working with me closely. Actually Apple loaned him a machine exactly like mine to figure it out. DP cpu spokes at absolutely nothing. Causes overloads. I had a session crash and burn yesterday. My last straw. So far MOTU has not been responsive to my support requests. They have in the past. Not yet today. Several hours. 9 to be more precise.

So I’ve been with MOTU since before they called it MOTU. Performer 1.2. DP 2.7. Ive always been a ardent defender. But I gotta bail. I have to admit it’s a prosumer product. I know I’m probably a corner case but it has been going on for a long time. Apple and MH have done a lot to figure it out. All indications point to MOTU who has done nothing.

Sorry. I loved DP but I’ve had nothing but problems. Hell, the PRIMARY REASON I got this massive MP was to fix the DP problems I was having. It was the wrong target.


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Are you on Catlina? Were you on Catalina before buying the new MP? Just curious. What kind of problems were you having with your previous computer that led you to buy the MP as a potential fix? Great to hear that Apple and MOTU are working closely together to try to figure it out.

[Henry Robinett]

No. I don’t know whether Apple and Motu are working together. I said Apple and MH (Metric Halo) are working closely to fix MY problem.

I was on Mojave on two 5,1 MPs before the new Mac Pro.


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[Henry Robinett]

I was having some of the same problems. Audio overloading. I pretty much exclusively record st 96k.


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