Logic 10.5 vs DP 10.1

[Michael Canavan]

I’m just now leaving DP and going to Logic and out PT. I own them both. I have had massive problems with DP over the past year that has not been addressed. I thought it was Apple. And it could be you know, but they’re the big ocean that all the big and small fish developers have to accommodate. I got the new Mac Pro 16 core 7,1 160 in December. And it’s been nothing but headaches ever since. I thought it was my interface- Metric Halo ULN-8, but the developer has been working with me closely. Actually Apple loaned him a machine exactly like mine to figure it out. DP cpu spokes at absolutely nothing. Causes overloads. I had a session crash and burn yesterday. My last straw. So far MOTU has not been responsive to my support requests. They have in the past. Not yet today. Several hours. 9 to be more precise.

So I’ve been with MOTU since before they called it MOTU. Performer 1.2. DP 2.7. Ive always been a ardent defender. But I gotta bail. I have to admit it’s a prosumer product. I know I’m probably a corner case but it has been going on for a long time. Apple and MH have done a lot to figure it out. All indications point to MOTU who has done nothing.

Sorry. I loved DP but I’ve had nothing but problems. Hell, the PRIMARY REASON I got this massive MP was to fix the DP problems I was having. It was the wrong target.


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I did the same thing in 2000, switched to Logic 4.7 from DP 2.7 over a bug that messed up playback of looped audio.
I stayed with Logic until 8, never really liked 8, and 7 crashed on me consistently for well over a year. Some update fixed 7, but I never really got excited about Logic after that. I've gradually made my way back to DP, but I keep a decent knowledge of a few DAWs because I don't want to end up where you're at.

Considering your problem isn't a global one, acknowledged by you as well, you have to consider the possibility that it's plug in related. The other possibility is it's a 96Khz bug. Considering Cubase had buffer size issues on OS X for years, I wouldn't rule that out.

[BWidemann]

If you really want to sidetrack, you should give a try to Studio One. I have used it for a while before moving to DP, and one of its great strengths appears to be its great stability. Works like a clock. I used the free version at first to test it, then purchased the Pro version. I will definitely keep it around, even if (at least for now) I focus on DP and feel better using it, by far.

[Henry Robinett]

I’m just now leaving DP and going to Logic and out PT. I own them both. I have had massive problems with DP over the past year that has not been addressed. I thought it was Apple. And it could be you know, but they’re the big ocean that all the big and small fish developers have to accommodate. I got the new Mac Pro 16 core 7,1 160 in December. And it’s been nothing but headaches ever since. I thought it was my interface- Metric Halo ULN-8, but the developer has been working with me closely. Actually Apple loaned him a machine exactly like mine to figure it out. DP cpu spokes at absolutely nothing. Causes overloads. I had a session crash and burn yesterday. My last straw. So far MOTU has not been responsive to my support requests. They have in the past. Not yet today. Several hours. 9 to be more precise.

So I’ve been with MOTU since before they called it MOTU. Performer 1.2. DP 2.7. Ive always been a ardent defender. But I gotta bail. I have to admit it’s a prosumer product. I know I’m probably a corner case but it has been going on for a long time. Apple and MH have done a lot to figure it out. All indications point to MOTU who has done nothing.

Sorry. I loved DP but I’ve had nothing but problems. Hell, the PRIMARY REASON I got this massive MP was to fix the DP problems I was having. It was the wrong target.


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I did the same thing in 2000, switched to Logic 4.7 from DP 2.7 over a bug that messed up playback of looped audio.
I stayed with Logic until 8, never really liked 8, and 7 crashed on me consistently for well over a year. Some update fixed 7, but I never really got excited about Logic after that. I've gradually made my way back to DP, but I keep a decent knowledge of a few DAWs because I don't want to end up where you're at.

Considering your problem isn't a global one, acknowledged by you as well, you have to consider the possibility that it's plug in related. The other possibility is it's a 96Khz bug. Considering Cubase had buffer size issues on OS X for years, I wouldn't rule that out.

I don’t see how it’s plug related. I’ve been troubleshooting this thing -Seriously troubleshooting since January. I’ve removed ALL plugins and still had this issue.


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[nk_e]

I agree. Chunks are totally unique to DP and an awesome feature. I guess R••••• has something called sub projects which might be similar. But does R••••• count? Not for me.

Sub Projects are basically flattened projects that can be heard in the open project, in that sense it’s really not the same, to work in them you have to un flatten them. akins of a cool idea, but not really as useful as Chunks.

Sounds like something Tracktion’s Waveform does also. They call the sub-projects “ edits”.

[nk_e]

If you really want to sidetrack, you should give a try to Studio One. I have used it for a while before moving to DP, and one of its great strengths appears to be its great stability. Works like a clock. I used the free version at first to test it, then purchased the Pro version. I will definitely keep it around, even if (at least for now) I focus on DP and feel better using it, by far.

I have to second that. Out of the DAWs I use for paid work, StudioOne is the least “twitchy”. It’s not completely “there” yet for film scoring IMO, but it’s gotten a lot closer in the last few releases. (You could totally get a small film done using it.) And it needs an articulation system too. But it’s very solid and easy to get 90% of the things done that I need to do. Native support for the Raven is also really nicely done I should add.

But for some reason, it’s not the most “inspiring” DAW for me when it comes to my own creative projects. I’m a really visually oriented person when it comes to software, so if I’m just creating something from scratch and for fun, the visual part of the experience is important to me. (YMMV of course.)

[BWidemann]

But for some reason, it’s not the most “inspiring” DAW for me when it comes to my own creative projects. I’m a really visually oriented person when it comes to software, so if I’m just creating something from scratch and for fun, the visual part of the experience is important to me. (YMMV of course.)

Agreed, SO can be painful to look at.
BTW in metric system it is "YKMV".

[dewdman42]

I have to second that. Out of the DAWs I use for paid work, StudioOne is the least “twitchy”. It’s not completely “there” yet for film scoring IMO, but it’s gotten a lot closer in the last few releases.

The interesting thing about S1 is that its being coded from the ground up in a new generation, using modern coding techniques and decades of knowledge about what should be in a DAW and how to code something like that using object oriented programming techniques, etc. For that reason, its quite stable, or less twitchy as you put it..ok. and I would agree. it also has a number of nice work flow features which are more in line with modern-think on software GUI design.

That being said, it doesn't come even remotely close to the "depth" of the old dinosaurs like LogicPro, DP and Cubase. But I like the path they are on, it is a DAW to watch over the next 10 years without question. I personally have enjoyed messing around with it, but for what I am mostly interested in, orchestral mockup, it is simply inadequate compared to LogicPro and Cubase. DP has a lot of depth in other areas...not particularly orch mockup though.

Since Presonus also own Notion, at least we know they have an eye on the orch mockup world. Notion actually has one of the best articulation management systems in existence right now, better then LogicPro or Cubase. Nobody knows about it because its not a full featured DAW, its a somewhat crippled notational program that happens to have hte best articulation playback engine compared to everyone else. So will that make it into StudioOne someday? I hope so, but its been a few years since they bought Notion and so far nada. So..we wait.. I think StudioOne has a bright future, that's all I'm saying, but for now, it just can't keep up with the depth of DP, LogicPro and Cubase. And it will be many years before it can. But it does have less "twitchiness" and some fun workflow features..and some nice built in plugins. I'm watching it. If they were to pull the articulation management features from Notion into S1, I would probably make a big effort to see what I could do with it as my primary DAW.

[nk_e]

I have to second that. Out of the DAWs I use for paid work, StudioOne is the least “twitchy”. It’s not completely “there” yet for film scoring IMO, but it’s gotten a lot closer in the last few releases.

The interesting thing about S1 is that its being coded from the ground up in a new generation, using modern coding techniques and decades of knowledge about what should be in a DAW and how to code something like that using object oriented programming techniques, etc. For that reason, its quite stable, or less twitchy as you put it..ok. and I would agree. it also has a number of nice work flow features which are more in line with modern-think on software GUI design.

That being said, it doesn't come even remotely close to the "depth" of the old dinosaurs like LogicPro, DP and Cubase. But I like the path they are on, it is a DAW to watch over the next 10 years without question. I personally have enjoyed messing around with it, but for what I am mostly interested in, orchestral mockup, it is simply inadequate compared to LogicPro and Cubase. DP has a lot of depth in other areas...not particularly orch mockup though.

Since Presonus also own Notion, at least we know they have an eye on the orch mockup world. Notion actually has one of the best articulation management systems in existence right now, better then LogicPro or Cubase. Nobody knows about it because its not a full featured DAW, its a somewhat crippled notational program that happens to have hte best articulation playback engine compared to everyone else. So will that make it into StudioOne someday? I hope so, but its been a few years since they bought Notion and so far nada. So..we wait.. I think StudioOne has a bright future, that's all I'm saying, but for now, it just can't keep up with the depth of DP, LogicPro and Cubase. And it will be many years before it can. But it does have less "twitchiness" and some fun workflow features..and some nice built in plugins. I'm watching it. If they were to pull the articulation management features from Notion into S1, I would probably make a big effort to see what I could do with it as my primary DAW.

I think you are spot on in the above.

I have the impression that Presonus has focused on ease of use and streamlined workflow particularly in recording a live band and the solo singer/song writer. Rumor has it that film composers are supposed to be getting a lot of love in version 4/5, but rumor is rumor.

Where I might differ is your timeline. I don't think we are going to need to wait 10 years for rough tool/capability parity. I'd put my money on a significant closing of the gap over the next 3 years, in part because of the modern architecture you cite above.

[tommymandel]

That's lovely. Thank you for sharing.

Spot on, HC!

[Michael Canavan]

I don’t see how it’s plug related. I’ve been troubleshooting this thing -Seriously troubleshooting since January. I’ve removed ALL plugins and still had this issue.

What is happening when it spikes then? You say it spikes at absolutely nothing, without any plug ins. I have 357 AU and 362 VST installed on this 2012 laptop and nothing like that happens here.

I'm assuming you've done all the normal things to see what the problem is? Turned off networks etc. etc.
You're on DP 10.11 right?

It's just, weird? I had similar problems with Logic 7, although I was on a "beta" hardware mac at the time, an update did eventually solve random crashes anyway.

[Henry Robinett]

It’s hard to tell. Sometimes on playback. A lot recording. No plugins other than PianoTeq, but as I said it was doing it before i started using that. I’ve taken out Altiverb and other plugins for recording because I don’t need them. When recording the band I’m also playing and leading the band do I can’t have my attention glued on the monitor. But when I look, sometimes randomly it seems, the performance meter pins to the right. I’ll hear a bit of static and get the dialogue error telling me I’ve overloaded audio.

I have gone in and taken plugins out, one by one. Then all. I kept a whole log of my troubleshooting as I had to document it for Apple and Metric Halo.

I’m telling you. This is a serious thing that doesn’t effect most people. We think DP doesn’t like higher sample rates. I’m always at 96k. It just doesn’t like it. There’s no reason we can figure why the Activity Monitor shows DP using 95-107% of Mac Pros CPU resources when it’s pretty well stripped and just playing back or recording empty audio tracks. Only ONE MIDI track.


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[BWidemann]

It’s hard to tell. Sometimes on playback. A lot recording. No plugins other than PianoTeq, but as I said it was doing it before i started using that. I’ve taken out Altiverb and other plugins for recording because I don’t need them. When recording the band I’m also playing and leading the band do I can’t have my attention glued on the monitor. But when I look, sometimes randomly it seems, the performance meter pins to the right. I’ll hear a bit of static and get the dialogue error telling me I’ve overloaded audio.

I had the same issue. I fixed it by changing settings in Setup > Configure Audio System > Configure Studio Settings. In the dialog, I set prime milliseconds to 300 (can't remember what was the original value, though) and I reduced the number of stereo busses drastically, down to 8 for a start.

It makes a world of difference, the overload has totally gone away, the performance bar rarely goes above 20% now. I'm reupping the number of busses slowly as need arises, I plan to push it only to what looks like a reasonable and useful quantity. There are many ways to route stuff in DP, a ton of busses is not the only one, and it is definitely costly.

[Henry Robinett]

Thank you. You had me excited. Nope, that wasn't it. O dropped 40 stereo and playback with only pianoteq, no VIs or other plugs - playing 17 audio tracks I get CPU 113%. 16 core Mac Pro 7,1 160 GB.

[Michael Canavan]

Thank you. You had me excited. Nope, that wasn't it. O dropped 40 stereo and playback with only pianoteq, no VIs or other plugs - playing 17 audio tracks I get CPU 113%. 16 core Mac Pro 7,1 160 GB.

Where are you reading 113% ?

In Activity Monitor (which I kind of assume is where you're reading that), with a 16 core you're good until you hit 1600%

[Henry Robinett]

But I’m not. When it’s spiking that hard I get the overload error and it records a static clip.


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