Recent Mac to PC converts....happy?

[artfarm1]

Hi, I'm thinking of cutting my Mac/Apple ties in the future because I'm tired of having Apple force me to stay in their 'universe' of constant updates and device-to-device slavery....and I'm not a total video geek or gamer, so I don't really need the 'latest/greatest'...my 2009 MacPro and 2011 MacBook Pro run beautifully with OSX El Capitan and Waves 9 plugins, Omnisphere, Mach5, Kontakt, etc. etc. with DP 9.52.

I'll keep my Mac's alive for sure as they're like children to me and they serve my daily needs, but I sure as hell won't be spending multi thousands or millions on the new non-upgradable Apple machines just to do my basic music needs (audio recording, MIDI, music notation, simple video editing.)

So... Mac converts:

Any advice?
- Windows 10 vs 7? - go with Windows 10 Pro 64 bit and turn off the upgrade switch?
- Intel vs other brands of PC processors? (the i7 dual-core on my 2011 MacBook Pro seems to have plenty of power, as does my stock 2009 MacPro for what I need)
- brands of PC hardware to avoid? PC laptops to avoid or look for?
- I don't mind used equipment at all. Anything to look out for when buying a used PC machine?

- are there any comparable system back up solutions for PC such as 'Carbon Copy Cloner' for Mac? (..from past experience on PC's, I remember Norton stuff as being almost impossible to escape from!)

Thanks all for any insights!

[bayswater]

I recently spent a lot of time looking at a PC alternative. Hardware was not the problem; there were any number of solid alternatives. I would have bought a custom built PC from a local shop for about 15% less than a replacement Mac, offset partly by the cost of the OS. I was able to borrow some PC stuff and try out DP and a few other things. It all worked just fine. I'd have to say that the Windows Explorer is like being back in 1992, but I suppose you'd get used to that.

Software and integration is more of a problem; hunting down, installing and setting up the Windows versions of plugins and VIs; buying new to replace AU only items; replacement of a few Apple only apps I use regularly like DSP-Quattro. Then there is the loss of integration with all the other Apple stuff I have, and the added layer of effort in interacting with extended family and friends, all of whom use Apple stuff.

My conclusion was that moving to Windows will work just fine, but not any better than Apple, and the time and effort to get there if not worth it. I bet the same applies when moving from Windows to Apple. Not worth the effort.

As for the Apple upgrade merry-go-round, maybe it's partly self imposed.

[mikehalloran]

but I sure as hell won't be spending multi thousands or millions on the new non-upgradable Apple machines just to do my basic music needs (audio recording, MIDI, music notation, simple video editing.)

I’m sorry but I can’t sympathize.

My G4 still does those basic tasks fairly well. DP 5, iDVD Logic 8...Word 2004 (or 5.1a if I want to boot into OS 9), AppleWorks etc. all work well in OS 10.4.11. If that’s all I want to do, I’m good. Except...

Ok, I can’t do my day job on that machine and there’s no browser that works well and DP 7.24 and later either work poorly or not at all... It won’t talk to my iOS devices nor run some other apps that I find quite convenient to my work, hobbies and quality of life

It’s just as useless to me as my Windows laptop.

Rode the Windows clown car between 1996 and 2011 for work. I was the first adopter at my current company and discovered that Mac OS and Chrome browser was the superior platform for the database we use once we dumped our Win only email platform. For a couple years, I had my laptop on my desk, using it to run the email interchange while doing everything else on my G5, then iMac.

Anyway, never going back.

As to the notion that Macs cannot be upgraded, that’s not true except for iOS devices where it’s extremely difficult. The new iMac released this week has user upgradeable RAM. eGPU, TB3 storage, upgradeable CPU... all possible. Ok, Apple discourages the average user from doing so but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done.

For example, only internal storage is not user upgradeable in the iMac Pro (yet?). It is possible to take an off the shelf basic model and turn it into a 10 core with 128GB RAM. Total savings over buying a similar machine from Apple averages $14 (not factoring the $ you get back selling the OE RAM and CPU on eBay).

The iMac released this week appears to be a pretty slick machine for DP: 8 Core i9, Radeon 580 or Vega 48 GPU, user upgradeable RAM to 64GB (OWC already has the RAM), up to 2TB blade—very nice s bench tested. Capable of 6TB onboard storage—replace the fusion components of the basic version with a 2TB NVMe blade + 4TB SATA III SSD for storage ($1,179 for the parts on Amazon + 45 minutes labor). OK, Apple limits you to a 2TB blade or a 3TB fusion (yuck) but it can be done if you don’t mind voiding the warranty.

So, you want to switch to Windows? Knock yourself out. No thanks.

[HCMarkus]

Not going to offer any thoughts on Mac vs PC, but have to provide my standard notification of the upgradeability of your 4,1 dual quad to 5,1 dual hex, about twice as powerful a machine that will run any macOS up to and including Mojave. If you haven't seen my posts about this subject, you haven't seen my posts.

[bayswater]

For example, only internal storage is not user upgradeable in the iMac Pro (yet?).

From the reviews I read I'd say this is a non issue. People who tested external SSD over TBS said the performance was as good or better than that of the internal drive. That means we can buy a computer with an internal drive that covers the OS and some apps and then add on what we need without compromise. I think this is what is meant by going modular now, compared to 20 years ago when we bought a huge box and opened it up to bolt new parts in. Now we buy a sealed box and plug stuff into the back of it. The remaining technical problem is RAM and that's still user upgradable. (and, still easier to do with a PC than a Mac)

[mikehalloran]

For example, only internal storage is not user upgradeable in the iMac Pro (yet?).

From the reviews I read I'd say this is a non issue. People who tested external SSD over TBS said the performance was as good or better than that of the internal drive. That means we can buy a computer with an internal drive that covers the OS and some apps and then add on what we need without compromise. I think this is what is meant by going modular now, compared to 20 years ago when we bought a huge box and opened it up to bolt new parts in. Now we buy a sealed box and plug stuff into the back of it. The remaining technical problem is RAM and that's still user upgradable. (and, still easier to do with a PC than a Mac)

The brand new 8 Core, i9, 27” iMac has the same door for replacing RAM as its predecessors. Since high performance GPU is not needed for DP, it looks really good at $3,199 with the Radeon 580, 1TB SSD and 8G RAM (+ $229 or less for an additional 32G RAM). I want 2TB so will spend the extra $600 if I buy one of these (about the same price as upgrading it myself). Not going to void the warranty on a new iMac.

Because of APFS Snapshots, the boot drive should large enough for your System, all Applications and all active work files. Those working with large 4K video, animation and graphics files may actually need the 4TB available on an iMac Pro BTO.

This leaves externals for VIs, your iTunes library (always possible but easier in Mojave), movies, inactive files etc.

This means that the larger your boot SSD, the less housekeeping you have to do as far as maintaining your active vs inactive work files. I know that I can make do with 1TB onboard but I’m used to 2TB and expect my next iMac to have it.

[mikehalloran]

Bottom line for me is that, set up the way I want with min 32G RAM, 580 GPU/eGPU, 2TB NVMe SSD on board, 5K monitor, nice trackpad, TB3 and AppleCare:

New iMac: 8 core i9 — $4203 incl 32G 3rd party RAM

Refurb iMac Pro: 8 Core i7 — $5,172 includes Vega 56 GPU.

2018 Mini: 6 core i7 — $4,096

Looking at comparable options from Dell, HP, Asus and a few others, I was coming up with a $4,500–$6,000 range including a high performance 4K monitor. BTO from Dell or HP to near identical specs is higher. I don’t understand this 15% savings even if I built it myself. (Fry’s started as a grocery store down the street from my house in San Jose). Then I have to use Windows 10 and get into paths and configuration every time something doesn’t work—been there, done that and manned a Windows support desk for ten years. I’m not afraid of something I don’t know.

I’m all for saving money but let’s stick to facts, ok?

[Michael Canavan]

Looking at comparable options from Dell, HP, Asus and a few others, I was coming up with a $4,500–$6,000 range including a high performance 4K monitor. BTO from Dell or HP to near identical specs is higher. I don’t understand this 15% savings even if I built it myself. (Fry’s started as a grocery store down the street from my house in San Jose). Then I have to use Windows 10 and get into paths and configuration every time something doesn’t work—been there, done that and manned a Windows support desk for ten years. I’m not afraid of something I don’t know.

I’m all for saving money but let’s stick to facts, ok?

Of course the real savings in PC land isn't in going with Dell or HP, it's building your own machine.
There's a new intel 2 terabyte M.2 out for $219 for instance.

In my dream world I get you to sit down and explain why Windows is the lessor OS to my friend Scott up here, who also ran a help desk, and is stuck thinking Macs are overpriced etc. They are, if you don't count maintaining a better OS, longer QA on the hardware etc.

The one ugly to Apple is this lack of legacy support. Scott erased a malware filled white macbook HD from 07 thinking that he could just find El Capitan online easy. We ended up finding a copy online, but not on Apples site. The computers last forever but support does not.

[mikehalloran]

There's a new intel 2 terabyte M.2 out for $219 for instance.

Got a link? I’m not finding it.

The one ugly to Apple is this lack of legacy support. Scott erased a malware filled white macbook HD from 07 thinking that he could just find El Capitan online easy. We ended up finding a copy online, but not on Apples site. The computers last forever but support does not.

No argument there. Once the OS became free of charge with 10.8, you’d think that Apple would maintain a legacy site.

I’m at the tail end of Apple Support Hell in regards to one of my iPads. I’ll write an article about on MacRumors it after my 14 day return period on the replacement is up and will link to it here.

[Michael Canavan]

There's a new intel 2 terabyte M.2 out for $219 for instance.

Got a link? I’m not finding it.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product. ... -_-Product

1800mbs is well above the per lane limit of older 2009 Mac Pros etc. Plenty fast enough.

I'm think ing about it but all my PCIe slots are filled, so I would need to get a carrier.

[Michael Canavan]

FYI, this is a cheaper type of SSD, explained here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OffzVc7ZB-o

It could have some problems with sample libraries etc.

I'm curious about real world performance VS tests.
Also wishing the SM951 961 series would drop in price...

[mikehalloran]

ahhh... NVMe 2 performance being advertised as NVMe 3 x4. Yep, that explains the price. OWC has been rebranding Intel SSDs for years but with the Apple pin-out.

Actually, with an adapter and heat sink, that might be perfect for the Mac Pro 6.1 and other Macs that are throttled at 1500 RW such as my daughter’s early 2015 MBP or my wife’s Air. I’m planning to upgrade the MBP as soon a she can live without it for a day while I do so... if.

You don’t want one in a 2015 or later iMac or MBP with a true 3 x4 bus. The 970 EVO runs at 3100 as does the 2017 iMac (same blade with different pin-out) and the new 970 EVO Plus is rated 3600 (500GB & 1TB shipping now with 2TB expected to ship in April).

But those speeds aren’t really important if streaming VIs. SATA III over USB 3 is plenty fast enough for that.

[artfarm1]

I guess one big reason I'm not an Apple 'fan-boy' anymore is partly due to their wanting to get iPads into every childs hands through getting them hooked on them in elementary school.

That's opens up aa whole other can of worms, but I see the terribly disturbing results of 'an iPad in every schoolchild's life' pretty much every day, through interacting with the schools and having a daughter in Grade 4.

We're believers in Steve Jobs original approach...don't let you children spend too much time on any devices...because the end results (neurologically, socially, emotionally, developmentally, etc.) are not pretty.

Plus, I don't believe that having every kid think that being able to use GarageBand is really being truly creative (...again, another can of worms..)

Devices in school? None of it's good...unless it helps with some physical handicaps and makes life easier. We now have a 'Zombie' problem that's occurred over the last decade. It's grim and doesn't bode well for society for the forseeable future.

Anyways...I have my eye on a used PC laptop for $250 that will run Onmisphere and other software beautifully, and I can take on live music gigs and not have a heart attack if it gets wrecked since it's pretty cheap.

With it's spec, it'll run circles around any used MacBook or MacBook Pro for that price. Do I really want to risk getting a used MacBook Pro for a similar price? No way.... too many possible problems such as video/gpu/motherboard problems on used MacBook Pros. And, trying to put OSX 9, 10, or 11 (or finding it if you don't have the original downloads or disks) is almost a waste of time.

Windows 10 is solid, and you can put a ton of music software on it while not having to worry about it being obsolete in a few years. It'll be easy to get hold of.

That's what I'm talking about... saving money and buying technology that's really fantastic and has been around for a few years.

Mac's have been my friend and companion for years. I hope they still stay alive for many more years. But, I'm preparing for change without having to put away a pile of gold bullion in the bank just for the sake of buying a computing device when I get a better or comparable device for 1/10 the price.

That's all... have to go with practicality and solidity. Kind of like buying a used Honda...it's gonna' work as long as you change the oil.

(Maybe that's why I play a Bach trombone? I want to save my money for switching out and trying out different lead-pipes!)

[artfarm1]

Not going to offer any thoughts on Mac vs PC, but have to provide my standard notification of the upgradeability of your 4,1 dual quad to 5,1 dual hex, about twice as powerful a machine that will run any macOS up to and including Mojave. If you haven't seen my posts about this subject, you haven't seen my posts.

For sure I follow your posts! And thank you! People like you, Mike Halloran, and many others are amazing... your knowledge and insights on the tech world are so refreshing and one of the highlights of the forum.

Yes, I followed your instructions from a couple of years ago to get my 2009 MacPro up to firmware 5.1

I probably should do more to it, but I still find that for what I do with DP and other software that the current state of the computer still suits me fine. I'd like it to run forever in its current state!

But if it all dies and I can't get parts, then I'll go the PC route and save tons of money for other things I need.

I don't run huge orchestral templates...more like chamber ensembles size for my production needs. And I've done some pretty heavy professional audio work with this baby... serious deadlines, serious video/TV producer to report back to with music tracks that better sound good or I'm not called back, voice/audio editing, etc. etc.

And if I need to hear a Sibelius score, I can use NotePerformer; which uses like no CPU power to speak of.

My only real problem with Apple is the OSX path/upgrades and Apple wanting us all to buy their devices and get us trapped in their cycle of upgrade this, upgrade that every year now.

And then they make sure that most average users (who don't know how to change out RAM, hard drives, clean up their machines, backup, etc. etc.) have to rely on Apple Stores to 'fix them'...for things that are really very simple to fix and could be done by anyone able to watch someone on YouTube tell you how to do something, or by going to the OWC website videos.

Way too cult-like now for my liking.

They're following the old Microsoft business model from the early '90's... get everyone hooked into their orbit and make it hard for the average user to take control of their machines or software.

That's the beauty of MOTUnation. People on here, like you and others, have empowered many of us to 'change the oil' in our machines and keep everything running. Thank you!

[Michael Canavan]

My only real problem with Apple is the OSX path/upgrades and Apple wanting us all to buy their devices and get us trapped in their cycle of upgrade this, upgrade that every year now.

And then they make sure that most average users (who don't know how to change out RAM, hard drives, clean up their machines, backup, etc. etc.) have to rely on Apple Stores to 'fix them'...for things that are really very simple to fix and could be done by anyone able to watch someone on YouTube tell you how to do something, or by going to the OWC website videos.

Way too cult-like now for my liking.

They're following the old Microsoft business model from the early '90's... get everyone hooked into their orbit and make it hard for the average user to take control of their machines or software.

Not trying to start any argument here, but exactly how has any of that changed from 20 years ago?
exactly why would you think Microsoft aren't going to do the same? I find that companies always want the user to use their products, this isn't surprising.
Because as you mention, we are not absolutely needing the fastest machine alive anymore, it's not that terrible of a price difference in my observation at the middle high end. The fastest CPU will always be overpriced and low powered macbooks are overpriced, but the middle range is not.

Every time I look at laptops out now that are $250 new, I realize they're about 1/4 the power of my 7 year old macbook pro. To get the same level of power as a modern macbook pro, you're going to pay macbook pro prices.
There are good arguments for build your own PCs, but I've seen only comparable price wise laptops that come near apples lines. I suppose if you're talking about macbooks, underpowered cheaper computers, then Windows laptops all the way, but even then there are serious pitfalls to this, if you think the occasional glitch with macbooks is bad, then wait until you can't use the USB bus for sound cards because the components are causing crackling in your audio.

And then they make sure that most average users (who don't know how to change out RAM, hard drives, clean up their machines, backup, etc. etc.) have to rely on Apple Stores to 'fix them'...for things that are really very simple to fix and could be done by anyone able to watch someone on YouTube tell you how to do something, or by going to the OWC website videos.

How do they make people too stupid to look at online resources if the Apple Store is wanting too much to repair the device? There's literally a "how to" video for pretty much anything you can do to an apple product. Conversely if the Windows laptop you buy is tightly put together, you're not at all guaranteed that there's a breakdown video of your particular model.

I've replaced the battery in my macbook pro, the GPU, chips, RAM, and flashed from 4,1 to 5,1. Installed M.2 SSDs on Sierra which required a hacked system extension because Sierra didn't support 3rd party NVME SSDs etc.

The argument revolves around laptops and the like for sure, but even then, I had the model affected by the bad GPU, came in right at the end of the timeframe to get it repaired, and opted to get the LED screen replaced as well, because there's a full repair option Apple doesn't brag about that has a cost limit of $350.
So Apple replaced the LED screen I partially broke, and the motherboard, for $350. If you get a bad Apple genius bar employee, try again.