Recent Mac to PC converts....happy?

[HCMarkus]

Thank you for your kind words Mr. Farm.

Here's hoping your MacPro lasts forever!

[artfarm1]

Thank you for your kind words Mr. Farm.

Here's hoping your MacPro lasts forever!

No problem... they're honestly said! And I'll delve into the processor upgrade, and check out the de-lidding that looks like it needs to be done.

But...back to my original idea....I'm just an average musician-bloke who's used Mac's to help put food on my table, and they've been great and they're like an instrument to me as much as my horn. I love the look of them, the feel, and what they've been up to now.

Same with DP...it's what I know and love. And, it's amazing that I've still never totally used everything that DP is capable of in my over 20 years of using it. There are some things in it that I've never used, yet it has sustained my work at levels of high professional expectations and results (and for my own self-expectation of creative goals, the realization of goals, and inspiration as well.) I'm as happy with using DP 9.52 on my 2009 MacPro and 2011 MacBook Pro as ever...they could never change anything and I'd still be set for life for what I do (as long as the hardware lasts!)

But if I want to use something for a live gig (ie: Omnisphere, Stylus, etc.) I can get a PC laptop (used or customized) for almost no money and it would also serve a lot of other purposes as well... and I could get a PC tower to easily replace my 2009 MacPro if needed.

But...like, who really has multi-thousands of dollars to throw around for the latest Apple offerings? Moreover... do musicians like me really need the latest-greatest and have to spend my life-savings just to stay in the 'Apple-orbit'?

I'm into re-cycling (of everything) and worry about many other things outside of being caught up in 'upgrade-upgrade' land.

There's a saying amongst all us brass players... your get to the point where you just have to realize that you have a tool to do a creative job, and nobody really cares what mouthpiece you're playing or whether you're on a Bach, Conn, or an Edwards or whatever.

And then you discover that by just getting the latest/greatest, that you sometimes get a horn that just makes you sound generically like everyone else...the company is imposing their concept of a 'brass sound' into the design of their mass-produced instrument (...not to name certain music instrument companies!) Then you get a kind of sterile brass sound that is indistinguishable from other players on the same brand of horn. (..good for some situations, not for others.)

Kind of like playing the game of "name that Apple Loop" that you're hearing on the TV or in an advertisement.

I should shut up now... didn't mean to get ranting!... and get back to learning about some aspect of DP that I still haven't fully explored or known about after heavy use over many years!

[stubbsonic]

I guess one big reason I'm not an Apple 'fan-boy' anymore is partly due to their wanting to get iPads into every childs hands through getting them hooked on them in elementary school.

That's opens up aa whole other can of worms, but I see the terribly disturbing results of 'an iPad in every schoolchild's life' pretty much every day, through interacting with the schools and having a daughter in Grade 4.

We're believers in Steve Jobs original approach...don't let you children spend too much time on any devices...because the end results (neurologically, socially, emotionally, developmentally, etc.) are not pretty.

Plus, I don't believe that having every kid think that being able to use GarageBand is really being truly creative (...again, another can of worms..)

Devices in school? None of it's good...unless it helps with some physical handicaps and makes life easier. We now have a 'Zombie' problem that's occurred over the last decade. It's grim and doesn't bode well for society for the forseeable future.

...

(Maybe that's why I play a Bach trombone? I want to save my money for switching out and trying out different lead-pipes!)

Three things:

Thing 1:

I taught at a school that put an iPad in every middle-schooler's hands. I was very concerned at the time. The headmaster considered this to be a cutting-edge educational technology implementation. The roll-out was well-thought-out. The results were mixed, and there were no major issues in the short-term. For some children & teachers, it was a very helpful learning tool. But there were plenty of minor issues, and (I suspect) a fair number of negative impacts that are under-reported.

For the record, I resisted for various reasons. My carefully stated position has been: "Watch the science. If this is proven to help with learning, and doesn't have significant down-sides, then proceed with caution! And don't force teachers to abandon proven teaching methods, or waste precious time."

I think the science-based opinions have been mixed, thus far. It is unfortunate that Apple has such a monopoly on this implementation of tech. It would feel different if we were only discussing whether any brand of tablet was a useful learning tool in the classroom. Now it feels so much like a corporate invasion of childrens' minds.

When they asked me to implement iPads in my band (!) classes, I came up with a few obvious things: kids used the Numbers app to enter their practice logs/journals, they used various tuning and metronome apps, which was very helpful, and they used Garageband to record step-type drum machine grooves (for practice/jamming), record themselves playing multiple parts of duets, trios, quartets (and learning to play to a click), and for composition assignments.

I hate the idea of kids setting real instruments down to play iPads. When any kind of iPad performance was suggested, I said, if ANY (band and non-band) kids want to form an iPad ensemble, they are welcome to do that. Any teacher who wants to lead them can do it. It's not the best use of my expertise (and that is coming from a teacher (me) who is very comfortable with technology, and in fact, celebrates what can be made with tech). No kids or teachers came forward to make that happen.

As you suggest, there are some kids with particular learning ways for whom the iPad opens doors, and that is a wonderful development.

Thing 2:

I've noticed that no one has suggested the option of a hackintosh. Talk about a can of worms. I'm not qualified to offer an opinion on it. I understand it is risky and not for the faint of heart. Sounds like a royal pain-in-the-arse, but some people swear by them (perhaps because of reasons). I was musing about what I'll do when my 2012 MBP fails (hopefully, I have time). I'll definitely come on here and beg for advice on what to get next! I don't think I have the stomach for dealing with the fresh hell that a Hackintosh might invoke.

Thing 3:

Fellow trombone player here. A local music store owner asked me to try a Getzen 3047 AFR. Even though I wasn't in the market for a new horn, I played it and loved it. Bought it the following year. As a multi-instrumentalist, I struggle to find time to keep up on trombone. I get lots of bass & guitar gigs. I don't play as much trombone as I used to, but still keep up my chops as much as possible.

I like those Bach trombones.

[Michael Canavan]

I've noticed that no one has suggested the option of a hackintosh. Talk about a can of worms. I'm not qualified to offer an opinion on it. I understand it is risky and not for the faint of heart. Sounds like a royal pain-in-the-arse, but some people swear by them (perhaps because of reasons). I was musing about what I'll do when my 2012 MBP fails (hopefully, I have time). I'll definitely come on here and beg for advice on what to get next! I don't think I have the stomach for dealing with the fresh hell that a Hackintosh might invoke.

If you're not comfortable with Terminal and command lines, it's not for you.

I had to go to the X86 project community to look for a solution to the NVME drive I had bought, I wanted to use it on Sierra, High Sierra was the first Mac OS that natively supported third party NVME M.2 drives.

A lot of what they do assumes you've done a good amount of Unix or Windows hacking, so it's a total PITA to get up and running. I eventually got the hacked NVME driver working, and now that High Sierra supports NVME I don't need it, but if I hadn't had a few days off to figure it all out I would have had a brain aneurysm.

I think if you know some code, it's a lot of fun, and I'm not totally convinced it's not slyly supported by Apple, since they can use it to gauge third party support, and it's not an overwhelming majority of people who are willing to put in the amount of work it takes to keep a Hackintosh running.

[artfarm1]

......I taught at a school that put an iPad in every middle-schooler's hands. I was very concerned at the time. The headmaster considered this to be a cutting-edge educational technology implementation. The roll-out was well-thought-out. The results were mixed, and there were no major issues in the short-term. For some children & teachers, it was a very helpful learning tool. But there were plenty of minor issues, and (I suspect) a fair number of negative impacts that are under-reported.

......For the record, I resisted for various reasons. My carefully stated position has been: "Watch the science. If this is proven to help with learning, and doesn't have significant down-sides, then proceed with caution! And don't force teachers to abandon proven teaching methods, or waste precious time."

....Fellow trombone player here.

[/quote]

Yes, having done, and currently doing, my share of doing a lot of sub-teaching work (due to having just moved back to our region and needing to pick up some extra work)it's very disconcerting to see the experimental dependence on the iPad in our school system. The jury is not out yet, but there's a lot of concern amongst teachers and parents as to the negative effects (growing lack of writing skills, lack of focus and attention time when presented with non-screen work, the addictive lure of the iPad and sneaking onto other programs and apps that are 'more fun', and the loss of 'linear' thinking skills..as in what did you just write...how can you really remember what you can't very readily access, compared to just having to turn pages in a book (or a pad of music score paper and pencil for composers). Many of the educational apps just have the kids pressing buttons trying to get the correct answer; the children aren't really thinking...it's like watching some of them play a slot machine...they just click away while being mesmerized like a bunch of little zombies.

I'm concerned for sure, because I'm seeing it throughout dozens of schools in the school system. It's the subject of regular dinner and social conversation amongst most parents I meet and that we know.

More trombones!....Less iPads!

More real instruments of any kind!

As Quicy Jones said a few years ago (I paraphrase:)
"We now have a generation of musicians that aren't 'musicians'...they've never played a real instrument (some don't play anything except drag in pre-made loops) and yet they think they're musicians. It's sad, because they've lost out on the human experience of having to breathe to make a sound, having to get the rhythm into their body, having to interact on a musical and social basis with other musicians. Just listen to the results. I'm worried."

I paraphrase to the best of my memory, but he knows what's up.

[stubbsonic]

With tech, it has never been "either-or". But now that everyone has a studio in their pocket, the ocean of content we swim in is deeper and wider. Fortunately, we now have interesting ways to sift through and access creative content from people who do more than pluck low-hanging fruit from loop libraries.

Quincy Jones famously hated on the Beatles, so I take some of his alarmism with a grain of salt. Perhaps he makes a fair point that the Beatles got an unfair portion of fame in comparison with other very accomplished musicians. But his point about connecting physically with music is hugely important. I think tech has allowed kids to enter an esoteric field that would otherwise throw up too many obstacles. Hopefully, tech won't cause kids to miss the opportunity to play real instruments-- even keyboards. Rubbing glass just isn't anything.

Sorry to take your topic into the weeds.

[mikehalloran]

OK, time to weigh back in.

1) To antfarm1: If you can find a $250 anything that lets you get the job done, I'm all for it. My disdain for Windows notwithstanding, one of my life's mottos is, "If it works, it works!" Please report back on your journey.
2)

I hate the idea of kids setting real instruments down to play iPads.

Same for adults.

The handicapped issue is huge for me, of course. Coming up on 10 years since I was able to play my stringed instruments. About a year later, I received an iPad and a few months afterwards, GB was ported to iOS and I could play bass again. GB (and other iOS) Basses suck for sooo many reasons but they exist and for that I am thankful.

Integrating iOS with Mac OS is a major big deal for me. My quality of life would suffer big time were that not possible. Really, you can't imagine and it's my fervent hope that you never have to.

3) Hackintosh. Just about every Apple engineer I know has made one. They're fiddly and if you're into the hobby of maintaining one and keeping it and your apps compatible, knock yourself out. No one I know tries to get serious work done on one. They can't. Once the novelty has worn off and the time invested piles up, most builders let them gather dust. Working professionals should avoid.

4) I have promised a report about my own recent decent into Apple Support Hell. My 14 days aren't up till next week, however.

[Michael Canavan]

3) Hackintosh. Just about every Apple engineer I know has made one. They're fiddly and if you're into the hobby of maintaining one and keeping it and your apps compatible, knock yourself out. No one I know tries to get serious work done on one. They can't. Once the novelty has worn off and the time invested piles up, most builders let them gather dust. Working professionals should avoid.

I know a few people who love them, but they're more into being tinkerers than I am, and it helps to know a bit of unix coding etc.

To me it's sort of a mixed bag, the supposed advantage of OSX is not having to tinker, so I kind of fail to see why it's a logical option? I suppose if you stuck a computer on a certain OS with a certain set of tools on it, then it wouldn't be any different than a regular mac? but that's not what we do as musicians.

[artfarm1]

..."If it works, it works!" Please report back on your journey.

... The handicapped issue is huge for me, of course.

... Integrating iOS with Mac OS is a major big deal for me. My quality of life would suffer big time were that not possible. Really, you can't imagine and it's my fervent hope that you never have to.

Will report back...nothing will change soon... but my first step will be to get a laptop with an eye to using some VI's integrated into live performances.
I've used Ableton Live on an old 2009 Mac Mini running Snow Leopard and it was indestructible for playing back audio files for a live show I composed/produced and then had to 'perform' live with mixes/fades.
(note: all composing/production done in MOTU DP 8 or 9!)

Now I'd like to use Omniphere and one or two other things in 'Live' mode...so I need some more power. A used PC can be had pretty cheaply that'll do the trick. And Ableton Live will work too, as I only need it to play back audio files...I'm not a crazy, heavy duty, electro-DJ or anything like!

Will report back, as I need to get something for some summer shows. Should be able to get set up with SSD outboard drive for safety, powerful enough i7 chip, Windows 10 Pro, etc. for $500 or less. If the laptop gets crushed, rained on, dropped in the mud, or whatever, I can get another one or already have a backup with me. As long as it does the job. Used MacBook Pros cost too much for what I need to do.

But...now, after having done taxes and seeing that this administration's IRS is making sure that there are now absolutely no breaks for anybody who is self-employed, our tax accountant is predicting a bit of a recession coming up...seeing as even long distance truckers are getting hosed on expenses in addition to normal middle and lower class families. She says people aren't getting any refunds to speak of, and now no one can buy that used car, book that holiday, go on the cruise ship, buy that new computer, etc. etc.

So, there might be some big sales coming up this summer and fall, because nobody but the 1% will have any money to play around with. I'll see what happens.

And yes, Apple is a god-send for making things work for people with any handicaps. I might have to get the slide-trombone app for my iPad someday if anything happens to me! Glad that you're able to get your music out to people, Mike!

Hackintosh ? ...no interest in that much tinkering.

Thanks again from everyone on the forum for your super-help to everyone who visits MOTUnation! Really...we all owe you big time!

[BobK]

A lot of what they do assumes you've done a good amount of Unix or Windows hacking, so it's a total PITA to get up and running. I eventually got the hacked NVME driver working, and now that High Sierra supports NVME I don't need it, but if I hadn't had a few days off to figure it all out I would have had a brain aneurysm.

Not that anyone's asking, but I just built a hackintosh two weeks ago, after doing a lot of research, and knowing nothing about actual hacking of the OS.

Considering that it was my first-ever computer build, it went pretty smoothly.

I got help from a YouTuber for a very reasonable (read: low) donation.

==========

Here's the big picture, from what I've gleaned as a total beginner:

There are two general approaches to Hackintoshing: the "tonymac" method (not an official name, but practiced by users of the web site tonymacx86) and the "vanilla" method.

The tonymac method involves hacking the System.

The vanilla method doesn't touch the System, instead placing the hacks in the [hidden] EFI partition. It's much cleaner, and I think it's a more recent development.

I used Vanilla. I copied a customized EFI folder onto an existing drive cloned from my old Mac Pro (so I wouldn't have to reinstall all my apps and plugins).

The only problem getting it to boot was an incorrect BIOS setting. Once I fixed that and the USB port mapping (easily done by my helper) everything worked, including iCloud services, Messages, FaceTime, my Metric Halo interfaces (via the new "MH Link" Ethernet connection), and my Magic Trackpad (via the same USB Bluetooth adapter I used on my Mac Pro). So far, all applications are running without issue.

I don't have a Wi-Fi card, but might add one later. I rarely used Wi-Fi on my Mac Pro.

The main hassle was the usual transfer of software licenses, which you have to do with any new Mac. (This made me really appreciate the convenience of the iLok, though I've complained about it in the past...)

==========

The easiest way to make a hackintosh is to duplicate an existing build - use the same CPU, GPU, and motherboard. If the person who does that build shares the EFI folder and you use the exact same hardware, it should be painless.

(Caveat: even the same model motherboard might have different revisions, which might require adjustments. If the prospect of dealing with this kind of thing gives you nightmares, hackintoshing is probably not for you!)

Also, while not absolutely necessary, it's safest to choose RAM from the motherboard manufacturer's Qualified Vendors List.

Pros:

1. Depending on how you the comparison, I saved from $1k to over $2k USD compared to the new 27" iMac.

2. The machine is upgradeable and repairable using off-the shelf parts.

3. Thermal throttling and/or fan noise won't be issues, like they could be on an iMac.

Cons:

1. If I run into serious issues, I'll have to hire someone for help or spend lots of time doing research.

2. If I want to update the OS, I'm dependent on the community of hackers to keep the drivers updated. That shows no signs of slowing at the moment, though eventually Apple could stop it by various methods, such as requiring the T2 chip to boot. Considering that the new iMacs lack this, I don't think that's imminent.)

3. It has less resale value than a Mac.

As for #2, with the vanilla method, updates are much easier than with the tonymac method. One YouTuber who seems reliable said that Mojave updates have been painless.

Of course, a smart option would be to do like one of my colleagues, and just "freeze" the system. He's been using a hackintosh for music and video production for over a year with zero issues. He hasn't updated the OS, though the guy who built it for him offers lifetime support.

Worst-case scenario, I either switch to Windows 10 or sell the machine.

(My neighbor used hackintoshes for years for his video production business. When they decided to switch from FCP-X to Premiere, they converted their computers to Windows 10, and have no major compaints.)

==========

For now, I have a machine that's blazingly fast and much quieter than my Mac Pro.

I think I got some useful knowledge from researching and building this thing. I came to appreciate the elegant design of the cheese-grater Mac Pro. At the same time, I realized that ultimately this is just a tool, and I don't mind that my new computer is just a plain black case with uglier but perfectly utilitarian innards. From this perspective, the Mac Pro seems over-engineered.

[ggm1960]

I was a convert to mac from PC when I started using computers for live performances probably back around 2001/02. Trying to use a PC laptop with interfaces and such back then quickly became frustrating. They were so finicky about where and when things got plugged into them that I'd be wasting precious setup time rebooting and messing with the PC. I bought a Powerbook G4, DP5, and never looked back.

Fast forward to the present and I'm trying to do some sequencing work that I can import to a Korg Krome (until recently a current production keyboard) for live performances. There were drivers and an editor program that used to work on my MBP provided by Korg but they were never updated and I just discovered the editor no longer works on the slightly outdated OSX version I'm currently running.

Enter again the PC. For the sake of simplicity and getting things done I just went to my Win10 Dell Desktop and used the software installed there.

I have no intention of switching all my processes back to PC but I'm just sick and tired of fighting with computers and software so I'll use whatever works at the time!