Someone on another forum said the ranges of many of the samples were smaller than the actual instruments. Can some of you that have MSI comment on the usuable ranges of the samples for the instruments? Thanks.
-Brian
MSI Ranges
Moderator: James Steele
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bkshepard
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MSI Ranges
-Brian
Mac M1 Ultra 20-core, OS 14.3.1, 128 GB RAM, DP 11.3.1, UA Apollo x6
Mac M1 Ultra 20-core, OS 14.3.1, 128 GB RAM, DP 11.3.1, UA Apollo x6
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whitecliffs
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hi bkshepard ...
i wrote to motu a few weeks ago and dave roberts replied to my questions as follows ...
Question ... for each instrument ... has the ENTIRE natural range of the instrument been sampled such that there is an actual sample for each note at each dynamic level ??? ie is the symphonic instrument plugin a sample player that does not in some way approximate sounds like a sampler does ??? for example what would happen if you asked for the symphonic instrument plugin to play a trumpet note that was out of range ??? would you get silence ??? or an approximation ???
Answer ... Yes the instruments reflect the correct ranges. If you generate a MIDI note that is out of the natural range of the instrument you will not hear any audio. Yes, multiple samples and velocity layers are used for maximum accuracy.
Question ... is it possible to get a list of all the dynamic levels and ranges for each instrument ??? or is it safe to assume that all instruments have a sample for at least pp ... p ... mf ... f ... ff and sfz ??? at each note in the instruments natural performance range ???
Answer ... Yes, all instruments are fully represented with different samples for dynamics as well as articulations and effects. Again, please spend some time with the examples at our web site and you'll get a very good idea of the capabilities of the Symphonic Instrument.
hope this helps ... whitecliffs ...
i wrote to motu a few weeks ago and dave roberts replied to my questions as follows ...
Question ... for each instrument ... has the ENTIRE natural range of the instrument been sampled such that there is an actual sample for each note at each dynamic level ??? ie is the symphonic instrument plugin a sample player that does not in some way approximate sounds like a sampler does ??? for example what would happen if you asked for the symphonic instrument plugin to play a trumpet note that was out of range ??? would you get silence ??? or an approximation ???
Answer ... Yes the instruments reflect the correct ranges. If you generate a MIDI note that is out of the natural range of the instrument you will not hear any audio. Yes, multiple samples and velocity layers are used for maximum accuracy.
Question ... is it possible to get a list of all the dynamic levels and ranges for each instrument ??? or is it safe to assume that all instruments have a sample for at least pp ... p ... mf ... f ... ff and sfz ??? at each note in the instruments natural performance range ???
Answer ... Yes, all instruments are fully represented with different samples for dynamics as well as articulations and effects. Again, please spend some time with the examples at our web site and you'll get a very good idea of the capabilities of the Symphonic Instrument.
hope this helps ... whitecliffs ...
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anders koppel
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whitecliffs
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The booklet contains the pitch ranges of most of the instruments (all the standard and some not-so-standard ones, and yes they are correct). I highly doubt MOTU would put that in their booklet, only to have MSI not give you the full range of pitches for the instruments.
http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=124437
There is the link to the post where it was mentioned that the MSI instruments had pitch ranges that were too narrow. I don't buy into what the person said, but I'm cynical. When I install MSI (in a day or so), I'll post back here and tell you all if what this person said is true or not.
http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=124437
There is the link to the post where it was mentioned that the MSI instruments had pitch ranges that were too narrow. I don't buy into what the person said, but I'm cynical. When I install MSI (in a day or so), I'll post back here and tell you all if what this person said is true or not.
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anders koppel
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Sorry to say: the ranges are not correct. Obo should go up to F5, only goes to C5 (Obo ensemble is correct, however). Clarinet goes down to D2, but the A-clarinet includes C#2. (Clarinet ensemble only goes down to F2 - why?) Bassoon should go up to E5, but only goes to C5. Fr.Horn should at least go up to C5, only goes to C4. This is what I have tested so far.
This is a serious hindrance for professional use of this otherwise quite well-done software. I wish Motu would consider correcting the mistakes.
This is a serious hindrance for professional use of this otherwise quite well-done software. I wish Motu would consider correcting the mistakes.
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bkshepard
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Since there are different octave definitions in use, I'll identify mine as C3=Middle C.
Wind, Brass and String instruments often don't have "fixed" ranges like one finds on a piano. In general, the lowest note is often set due to the length of tubing or string, but the upper end can vary from player to player. Any decent orchestration text can provide those commonly accepted ranges. Realize, though, that most of those texts give you ranges for a "Professional Orchestral Player." That means less experienced players typically don't have that full range and professional solo players might be able to exceed that. When in doubt, talk to the players you are writing for.
For example, the standard flute has C3 as its lowest note, although many players have a "B Foot" on their flute that allows them to play a half-step lower to B2. The upper end of the flute is usually given as C6 although some newer flutes have keys for C-sharp6 and D6.
Oboe is B-flat2 to G5 or even A5 with some players
Anders' confusion on the clarinet's bottom note comes from the fact that all soprano clarinets have E2 as their lowest WRITTEN note. Since they are transposing instruments, that means they produce different SOUNDING pitches for a given written note. For example: E2 on a B-flat clarinet produces D2, while on an A clarinet it produces C-sharp2. Thus, it sounds like the MOTU samples are correct on that one.
I don't have MSI yet and thus I have been most interested in this discussion. In my experience, many times when I hear someone complain about the range of an instrument sample, they don't have a realistic understanding of that instrument's true range. I don't know if that's the case here or not. Thus it would be most helpful if someone who actually has MSI could give some specific examples of the ranges of the samples. Please also include a reference point (ex. C3=Middle C) so we know the scale you are using.
-Brian
Wind, Brass and String instruments often don't have "fixed" ranges like one finds on a piano. In general, the lowest note is often set due to the length of tubing or string, but the upper end can vary from player to player. Any decent orchestration text can provide those commonly accepted ranges. Realize, though, that most of those texts give you ranges for a "Professional Orchestral Player." That means less experienced players typically don't have that full range and professional solo players might be able to exceed that. When in doubt, talk to the players you are writing for.
For example, the standard flute has C3 as its lowest note, although many players have a "B Foot" on their flute that allows them to play a half-step lower to B2. The upper end of the flute is usually given as C6 although some newer flutes have keys for C-sharp6 and D6.
Oboe is B-flat2 to G5 or even A5 with some players
Anders' confusion on the clarinet's bottom note comes from the fact that all soprano clarinets have E2 as their lowest WRITTEN note. Since they are transposing instruments, that means they produce different SOUNDING pitches for a given written note. For example: E2 on a B-flat clarinet produces D2, while on an A clarinet it produces C-sharp2. Thus, it sounds like the MOTU samples are correct on that one.
I don't have MSI yet and thus I have been most interested in this discussion. In my experience, many times when I hear someone complain about the range of an instrument sample, they don't have a realistic understanding of that instrument's true range. I don't know if that's the case here or not. Thus it would be most helpful if someone who actually has MSI could give some specific examples of the ranges of the samples. Please also include a reference point (ex. C3=Middle C) so we know the scale you are using.
-Brian
Okay, I do think some of the pitch ranges are too narrow, now that I've played around with MSI a lot. C3 is middle C here.
Oboe sus 1 goes from C3 and goes to C5. Same with Oboe sus 2. Oboe sus 3 goes from B2 to E5. I think someone screwed up here. The ensemble oboe is NOT correct, either. It's still too narrow. There might be a way to fix it, but I don't know it yet.
Either way, this is just a minor setback for me. The majority of the pitches are here, and I'm happy to wait for an update or something. I also have my Roland as backup. Like I said before - this thing is fantastic backup, but limiting (without the proper gear and technique) if used alone.
Oboe sus 1 goes from C3 and goes to C5. Same with Oboe sus 2. Oboe sus 3 goes from B2 to E5. I think someone screwed up here. The ensemble oboe is NOT correct, either. It's still too narrow. There might be a way to fix it, but I don't know it yet.
Either way, this is just a minor setback for me. The majority of the pitches are here, and I'm happy to wait for an update or something. I also have my Roland as backup. Like I said before - this thing is fantastic backup, but limiting (without the proper gear and technique) if used alone.
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anders koppel
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bkshepard
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Sorry, I misread your original post. I thought you were saying there was a "Bb Clarinet" sample that went down to D2 and an "A Clarinet" sample that went down to C#2. After re-reading your post, I see that you are describing a basic "Clarinet" sample that only goes down to D2 even though the actual A Clarinet can play a C#2. My apologies for my own confusion.anders koppel wrote:I am not at all confused - AND the MSI clarinet only includes D2 (as the Bb-clarinet does) but not the Csharp2 (as the A-clarinet does). Thus it is not possible to play the A-clarinet's lowest note in MSI, as necessary when having the A-clarinet in your score.
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jeffwiththejams
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Note ranges not correct
For those of you who are disappointed in the note ranges of the wind instrument...I fully agree the natural ranges are NOT correct in many cases.
I've only had a chance to play with it one night, so far. I first noticed this
in the flute samples (not being able to play the lowest notes). Then, I pulled up the trumpets. C'mon MOTU! I spent several years on the library staff of a major symphony orchestra -- the trumpet players could all play higher than this program will allow. I played and studied trombone and bass trombone in college -- can't accurately play the bass trombone pedal tones here. The list goes on.
Over the weeks ahead, I'll get a chance to compare this to the Garritan
Personal Orchestra, which is also loaded on my laptop. After only an hour of "fiddling" around (pun intended), it's my opinion that GPO does a better job than MOTU on the natural ranges of the winds.
Two other observations:
1. I wish these lower-cost orchestral packages could at least hire a piano
tuner to fix the tunings on the pianos before they're used for sampling. In both the MOTU and GPO libraries, octave 5 and up are NOT as in-tune as the should be. They remind me of some lounge pianos I played on years ago.
2. The MOTU jewel case in which my disks came do not hold the disks well. My data disk was loose during shipment -- it also fell loose in my laptop bag. It has now become scratched. Bummer!!
Sorry, MOTU. Guess we're off to a disappointing start here.
I've only had a chance to play with it one night, so far. I first noticed this
in the flute samples (not being able to play the lowest notes). Then, I pulled up the trumpets. C'mon MOTU! I spent several years on the library staff of a major symphony orchestra -- the trumpet players could all play higher than this program will allow. I played and studied trombone and bass trombone in college -- can't accurately play the bass trombone pedal tones here. The list goes on.
Over the weeks ahead, I'll get a chance to compare this to the Garritan
Personal Orchestra, which is also loaded on my laptop. After only an hour of "fiddling" around (pun intended), it's my opinion that GPO does a better job than MOTU on the natural ranges of the winds.
Two other observations:
1. I wish these lower-cost orchestral packages could at least hire a piano
tuner to fix the tunings on the pianos before they're used for sampling. In both the MOTU and GPO libraries, octave 5 and up are NOT as in-tune as the should be. They remind me of some lounge pianos I played on years ago.
2. The MOTU jewel case in which my disks came do not hold the disks well. My data disk was loose during shipment -- it also fell loose in my laptop bag. It has now become scratched. Bummer!!
Sorry, MOTU. Guess we're off to a disappointing start here.