Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling...

[FMiguelez]

FM, I don't doubt anything you've said about your problems with DP, but it seems to me that you're not likely to be better off overall with another DAW. They all have their failings, and their strong points. I think using multiple DAWs for their strengths is a reasonable approach. E.g., I'll be using Logic more for tempo maps with the new approach in LP 10.4. It seems to work a lot more like MOTU Freestyle did (ironic, eh?)

I agree with you, Bays.
Every DAW out there will have one or more issues compared to a similar one. Some will be better at doing some things than the next.

However, I really feel that the issues I've pointed out, especially the ones about automation/editing, are "too basic and expected to work as -expected-" for DP. It's really nothing unusual or esoteric> it's simple automation editing VS timeline manipulation and snips and pastes.

I have no problem going to another DAW for certain situations or more specialised workflows. Like I'm just starting to do with Live 10> It's nicely covering certain areas where I felt DP was not particularly strong.
But I wouldn't like to do my compositions in DP and then basic edits with automation in another DAW!
The jumping around apps would be impractical for this, especially since these issues show themselves at the initial MIDI stage and at the latter audio-editing stage.

So I accept your suggested approach of using different DAWs for different tasks where they excel. It's just that basic editing and automation, as described above, should not be one of those things, especially for such a capable DAW like DP.

Something to keep in mind when these things happen: one reason you can make a living at this is you've figured out how to solve the problems you listed. We can hope DP will fix the things that make work difficult, and so should all the other DAW companies, but maybe that will just push the bleeding edge you're on out even further.

Yes. Fortunately there are workarounds for most, not all (folder craziness), the issues I've pointed out.

But some of those workarounds are such buzz killers... You know that. Like TDH wrote above, when there's something you REALLY dread doing, or try to avoid, you know that's an area that could be improved. And this automation situation is one of them.

I trust most of you can see this by now with my Session From Hell example. Many other real and similar scenarios are typical and probable in a lot of broadcast gigs.

[waxman]

Waxman and Gravity Jim, you never addressed my points...

I challenge you to go use any other DAW for just one week.

Then, I challenge YOU and Gravity Jim to this:

------ >> Produce a complex 3-minute large orchestral piece using VIs (something like VSL).
--------->> Create the required edits for the promo versions according to the instructions below.

This is to simulate a typical real-life scenario in my or in TDH's professional lives. I'm sure he could provide a million different examples.

"Produce a complex 3-minute large orchestral piece using VIs (something like VSL). "
Sorry... Not my circus not my monkey. I should know better by now then to wade into the orchestral camp waters. But I do wish you the best of luck on your journey.

[Gravity Jim]

You can hear the orchestral work I’ve already done in DP at my website.

I can’t remember who said it, but the idea that you will avoid certain effects or musical ideas because you so totally dread the sequence of button-pushing required is a little silly. You know what I dread? Chopping up the mound of busted up branches and trunks that came down in the wildfire storms. Telling my demented father that his wife is dead. Colonoscopy prep. I don’t dread a command sequence, for pete’s sake.

Im not saying that DP is perfect. But I am saying that all the whinging and hand-wringing over minor points of operation is just first-world silly. The hard part of the kind of composition/production work I do is making creative decisions about the music. I barely notice the tools.

Which might be why I defend DP so hard. I spent a year using Logic Pro (because DP wasn’t 64-bit yet), and still found it difficult to use (even after the manual, the Groove3 videos, the advanced third-party books and much time at the Logic Pro forums). I just like DP’s quirks better than Logic’s. As for the Grim DAW, I’ve tried it twice, and it’s like an ugly train wreck.

[HobbyCore]

BTW, which of the other apps (living or living dead) do multiple sequences in a single project? Do any of them do that?

Waveform, Studio One, Reаper.

I think it's possible to say that 2 of them do it better than DP too.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

BTW, which of the other apps (living or living dead) do multiple sequences in a single project? Do any of them do that?

Waveform, Studio One, Reаper.

I think it's possible to say that 2 of them do it better than DP too.

Thanks. I'll investigate for sure!

[Michael Canavan]

-----> Report back and tell us how long it took you to do the edits for both versions, and how you explained to the producer why, after every single cut or paste or snip that you needed to do to get the alternate versions, you had to waste so much time checking track by track to make sure the automation 1) didn't get messed up, and/or 2) to correct the unwanted ramps for every automated parameter you will surely find in the MIDI and audio tracks... Aaaaaalll of them....)

Damn! No wonder that your mix sounded all wrong now that you pasted some tracks to make the first part of the extended version...

Oh, look! The tempo map got messed up as well after a snip! No wonder the click doesn't match this section any longer.
And you hardly just got started with the editing...
Tick-Tack Tick Tack.... He needs to send the edited versions NOW. He's breathing down your neck...
Oh, and the guitars from the middle of the short version now are too soft after those couple of snips you did 15 minutes ago... What happened there?... Oh, right. Look at those damned ramps!

Oh, and remember those alternate takes you had done 3 hours ago? Surprise! Now, after your timeline edits, they are ALL out of sync with the time line of your protect.

I am not at all trying to knock on DP here, but this seems to me to be the sort of problems that can happen when a DAW doesn't do object oriented MIDI at all. In pretty much every other DAW a track can have automation on the track itself and the object (or clip or whatever that DAW calls a chunk of MIDI data that can be split, merged, etc. like audio) can have automation embedded into the object. This is how Live, Logic, Reaper, Cubase etc. does it. Object or clip automation overrides any track automation. Generally there are ways that you can move the data to and from the object and the track.
Without that you have all kinds of variables for things to go wrong. Not saying DP must get clip or object oriented automation for this to work, MOTU should make this seamless as it stands, it's just that the very nature of cc etc. data not being that tied to the MIDI notes, IMO makes it not at all surprising that moving MIDI data around can lead to problems. MOTU probably will, Logic just got snapshot automation and something sort of like the Chunks feature in songs saved within a main song etc. so there's competition gearing up for certain things DP has had an advantage in.

[HobbyCore]

BTW, which of the other apps (living or living dead) do multiple sequences in a single project? Do any of them do that?

Waveform, Studio One, Reаper.

I think it's possible to say that 2 of them do it better than DP too.

Thanks. I'll investigate for sure!

Waveform it's called 'edit clips'

Studio One has the project page (similar to DP's songs window) and scratch pad

Reаper has 'sub-projects'.

That should help your research. None of them are identical to DP's chunks, but they all have their own advantages and disadvantages depending on your usage.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Much appreciated. I'm not looking to change my DAW but it would be ignorant to not know what's out there. I'm trying to cure that ignorance. Lol

[HobbyCore]

Much appreciated. I'm not looking to change my DAW but it would be ignorant to not know what's out there. I'm trying to cure that ignorance. Lol

Yes. I've learned to use DP's capabilities better myself after seeing how other products work.

You start to wonder if DP can do something when you see how another product works, then you realize maybe DP can/can't but there's some other feature you didn't know about yet.

To me it's no different than listening to styles of music you don't make. You can learn many great ideas to integrate in to your own art and in your own way.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

An open mind is a terrible thing to waste.

[FMiguelez]

"Produce a complex 3-minute large orchestral piece using VIs (something like VSL). "

Sorry... Not my circus not my monkey. I should know better by now then to wade into the orchestral camp waters. But I do wish you the best of luck on your journey.

Ok.
I can certainly respect that.
But it was just an example to illustrate a point. I take it you saw what I meant to show. Thank you, Waxman.

You can hear the orchestral work I’ve already done in DP at my website.

That was not the point of my little challenge/fun exercise above.
Did you even read what I wrote?

I can’t remember who said it, but the idea that you will avoid certain effects or musical ideas because you so totally dread the sequence of button-pushing required is a little silly.

It's just a harmless insignificant saying. Not worth deviating from the point for.

I've never said anything about "button-pushing", though.
Care to explain what you're referring to without recurring to more straw men, please?

Jim, let me ask you>
If a decision-maker at MOTU were reading this thread, ideally, for you, what would be the reaction you'd like him or her to have?
"Oh, look. Jim's right. There's nothing wrong with DP! The problems this dog garbage bag-hat person presented are unimportant and they're not that bad. There are workarounds... We've been doing it like this for years. Who cares what the "competition" is doing? It's all fine. We're so great"
'Cause it certainly sounds like it...

Did you actually TRY doing any of my described problems or my challenge to you above? No? I didn't think so, and it shows...

You know what I dread? Chopping up the mound of busted up branches and trunks that came down in the wildfire storms. Telling my demented father that his wife is dead. Colonoscopy prep. I don’t dread a command sequence, for pete’s sake.

What does that have to do with the price of fish again?

Im not saying that DP is perfect.

You may not be saying it literally , but you are certainly acting as if it were perfect, which gives the same result.

But I am saying that all the whinging and hand-wringing over minor points of operation is just first-world silly.

MINOR points? Wow!
Silly? How, exactly?

So you think it is a "minor thing" not being able to move automated tracks around without messing up your mix?

You don't mind not being able to freely snip and paste sections of your tracks around without creating erroneous ramps all over the place?
How forgiving of you!


You know, blind and unjustified brand loyalty is irrational, especially when you've been presented with evidence and detailed instructions on how to reproduce some of the MANY clear problems DP has.
I detailed them especially FOR YOU, so you could reproduce them yourself. But you don't want to even try it... Why this weird denial?

Are we (the ones who notice these flaws) being unreasonable or acting like trolls for pointing them out and demand getting them fixed? Is it so annoying for you?

DP is, after all, the only DAW that does this "silly little thing" of easily ruining your mix after simple timeline edits or track pasting/snipping operations.

So far, all your responses have been nothing but red-herrings or straw men.That's not too far from trolling...

The hard part of the kind of composition/production work I do is making creative decisions about the music. I barely notice the tools.

Nice Sunday soundbit.

In the context of the thread, however, it's meaningless and it's also another red-herring.

Are you going to actually ADDRESS ANY of the presented DP serious problems we've discussed?
Or are you going to keep dismissing and hand-waving them away?

Which might be why I defend DP so hard. I spent a year using Logic Pro (because DP wasn’t 64-bit yet), and still found it difficult to use (even after the manual, the Groove3 videos, the advanced third-party books and much time at the Logic Pro forums). I just like DP’s quirks better than Logic’s. As for the Grim DAW, I’ve tried it twice, and it’s like an ugly train wreck.

Defend DP all you want, but only when it is defensible, please!
It is not the case now. Not with the problems I've talked about. How can you even try to defend that?.
Come on, Jim. You know better than that. Simply accept that, despite how much you (and I) love DP, it does have a few tremendous weaknesses. Fixing them would only make DP much better!
Don't ignore the problems, otherwise you're starting to sound like our politicians' apologetics to justify the unjustifiable.

When you blindly try do defend DP, or anything else for that matter, to the point of covering your eyes and ears to ignore the glaring problems, it makes you look as if you were a faithful fanboy with misplaced brand loyalty.
It's not unlike devoted and unjustified nationalism> You just can't do it without being irrational and primitive.

Again, you did not even try to do any of my challenge to you above, yet you insist on coming here to say it's all sun shine, kitties and lollipops.

I can respect an answer like Waxman's. But you are STILL dismissing the problems I've pointed out and calling them "minor" out of sheer stubbornness, without trying them out, and it's so annoying and unproductive.

[FMiguelez]

To me it's no different than listening to styles of music you don't make. You can learn many great ideas to integrate in to your own art and in your own way.

Yes!

2 thumbs up for that

I am not at all trying to knock on DP here, but this seems to me to be the sort of problems that can happen when a DAW doesn't do object oriented MIDI at all. In pretty much every other DAW a track can have automation on the track itself and the object (or clip or whatever that DAW calls a chunk of MIDI data that can be split, merged, etc. like audio) can have automation embedded into the object. This is how Live, Logic, R•••••, Cubase etc. does it.

I really think MOTU could fix these issues without resorting to object-oriented MIDI programming and having to change too much of the program.
It's not that I oppose it, but many here probably would, unfortunately. And that would open another big can of salty worms.

I don't know how much object-oriented programming happens with Soundbite Volume and Soundbites, but it seems to already be working great, as expected, exemplifying how the automation issues we've discussed should behave.

[Michael Canavan]

I really think MOTU could fix these issues without resorting to object-oriented MIDI programming and having to change too much of the program.
It's not that I oppose it, but many here probably would, unfortunately. And that would open another big can of salty worms.

I don't know how much object-oriented programming happens with Soundbite Volume and Soundbites, but it seems to already be working great, as expected, exemplifying how the automation issues we've discussed should behave.

Yeah Sounbite volume is a good example of object oriented automation, so it makes sense it would be one of the few things not messed up when moving tracks around. You would think this applies to pitch automation as well though, but I think like most automation in DP it’s somewhat separate from the audio clip it’s tied to... I get why MOTU don’t change to object oriented MIDI, considering the people here who hate the idea, and the technical parts that would be required to now think of automation as per object and per track etc. but I think mostly the main reason not to like it is having to fuss with selecting the entire tracks clips etc. to see all the MIDI data as one long run in the MIDI editor. Beyond that it’s not any different than what we have in the way of parsed phrases, except it gives you the choice of what a phrase is. Not trying to go off topic here, but MOTU could answer that issue other DAWs have with object oriented MIDI by offering clip view and track view in the MIDI editor and Sequence editor, serving both sides. The advantage here for you and others experiencing automation issues would be serious consideration of track automation in general and concern plus man hours put into solving this issue with automation getting wonky when moving.

[Gravity Jim]

That was not the point of my little challenge/fun exercise above.
Did you even read what I wrote?

I can’t remember who said it, but the idea that you will avoid certain effects or musical ideas because you so totally dread the sequence of button-pushing required is a little silly.

It's just a harmless insignificant saying. Not worth deviating from the point for.

I've never said anything about "button-pushing", though.
Care to explain what you're referring to without recurring to more straw men, please?

Jim, let me ask you>
If a decision-maker at MOTU were reading this thread, ideally, for you, what would be the reaction you'd like him or her to have?
"Oh, look. Jim's right. There's nothing wrong with DP! The problems this dog garbage bag-hat person presented are unimportant and they're not that bad. There are workarounds... We've been doing it like this for years. Who cares what the "competition" is doing? It's all fine. We're so great"
'Cause it certainly sounds like it...

Did you actually TRY doing any of my described problems or my challenge to you above? No? I didn't think so, and it shows...

You know what I dread? Chopping up the mound of busted up branches and trunks that came down in the wildfire storms. Telling my demented father that his wife is dead. Colonoscopy prep. I don’t dread a command sequence, for pete’s sake.

What does that have to do with the price of fish again?

Im not saying that DP is perfect.

You may not be saying it literally , but you are certainly acting as if it were perfect, which gives the same result.

But I am saying that all the whinging and hand-wringing over minor points of operation is just first-world silly.

MINOR points? Wow!
Silly? How, exactly?

So you think it is a "minor thing" not being able to move automated tracks around without messing up your mix?

You don't mind not being able to freely snip and paste sections of your tracks around without creating erroneous ramps all over the place?
How forgiving of you!


You know, blind and unjustified brand loyalty is irrational, especially when you've been presented with evidence and detailed instructions on how to reproduce some of the MANY clear problems DP has.
I detailed them especially FOR YOU, so you could reproduce them yourself. But you don't want to even try it... Why this weird denial?

Are we (the ones who notice these flaws) being unreasonable or acting like trolls for pointing them out and demand getting them fixed? Is it so annoying for you?

DP is, after all, the only DAW that does this "silly little thing" of easily ruining your mix after simple timeline edits or track pasting/snipping operations.

So far, all your responses have been nothing but red-herrings or straw men.That's not too far from trolling...

The hard part of the kind of composition/production work I do is making creative decisions about the music. I barely notice the tools.

Nice Sunday soundbit.

In the context of the thread, however, it's meaningless and it's also another red-herring.

Are you going to actually ADDRESS ANY of the presented DP serious problems we've discussed?
Or are you going to keep dismissing and hand-waving them away?

Which might be why I defend DP so hard. I spent a year using Logic Pro (because DP wasn’t 64-bit yet), and still found it difficult to use (even after the manual, the Groove3 videos, the advanced third-party books and much time at the Logic Pro forums). I just like DP’s quirks better than Logic’s. As for the Grim DAW, I’ve tried it twice, and it’s like an ugly train wreck.

Defend DP all you want, but only when it is defensible, please!
It is not the case now. Not with the problems I've talked about. How can you even try to defend that?.
Come on, Jim. You know better than that. Simply accept that, despite how much you (and I) love DP, it does have a few tremendous weaknesses. Fixing them would only make DP much better!
Don't ignore the problems, otherwise you're starting to sound like our politicians' apologetics to justify the unjustifiable.

When you blindly try do defend DP, or anything else for that matter, to the point of covering your eyes and ears to ignore the glaring problems, it makes you look as if you were a faithful fanboy with misplaced brand loyalty.
It's not unlike devoted and unjustified nationalism> You just can't do it without being irrational and primitive.

Again, you did not even try to do any of my challenge to you above, yet you insist on coming here to say it's all sun shine, kitties and lollipops.

I can respect an answer like Waxman's. But you are STILL dismissing the problems I've pointed out and calling them "minor" out of sheer stubbornness, without trying them out, and it's so annoying and unproductive.

I give up.

I don't work like you screw-counters who edit and edit and edit and edit your little MIDI tracks.And I suggest you watch what you say, dude. You are veering dangerously close to personal attacks, especially that bullsh•• comparing me to American politicians. •••• you.

[James Steele]

I didn't see comparisons to politicians, but Jim, you need to control yourself. Your two-word parting shot was automatically censored, but uncalled for. That was INDEED a personal attack. Take a breath!