I need my Ah HAH! moment.

[Releaux]

Ok, I know many people consider Unisyn to be very easy to use, especially in conjunction with DP. But for the life of me, I've never been able to get my head around how this program works, despite having owned it all the way back to when it was on the Amiga (X/OR, right?).

I really want to use it, I really do, but all that ever seems to happen is that after I launch it, DP forgets my JV-2080's expansion board presets, and none of the other synths that I've told Unisyn about seem to have the right patch lists.

The manual is ok, but because of Unisyn's architecture (and the bugaboos involved in dealing with multiple manufacturer's interpretations of SYSEX), it can't be as specific as I'd like. Finally, the help files for each profile, while they have helped me get some results, still seem to not quite click with me.

I'm taking the blame for these problems - it's me, I'm sure - I need a little more help understanding the basic workflow, and having a few "this is how I use it" posts will help immensely.

My Unisyn devices are a Kurzweil 2600XS with the Contemporary, Orchestral, and Piano expansion cards, and a JV-2080 with all expansion slots full.

So here are my questions (many are specific to the JV, but I suspect a lot of you have one of those):

1. JV-2080 Expansion Cards
I've enabled the correct expansion cards within the "System" section of the JV-2080 device, but can't ever seem to get DP to recognize that they're there. (Note: I *did* have the expansions available when I used the "Expansion Board Setup" utility that came with DP 4.1 - they disappeared when I started using Unisyn.)

So I'm assuming that I need to do a "Get patches and banks" thing, but what do I do with them after I've done that? Create a document? Take a snapshot? I'm kind of lost here.

Additionally, Unisyn seems to "forget" about all of the patches in the User and Expansion areas when I quit... is this normal?

2. When I select MIDI --> Get Group --> All Patches & Banks, Unisyn gets everything from all devices. If I only want to deal with the JV, is there a way to have Unisyn ignore the K2600?

3. The JV-2080 profile seems to be out-of date. It doesn't, for example, know that Expansion card 19 is the "House" expansion. Is there any way for a non-programmer/end user to let Unisyn know what these later expansion cards are named?

4. The JV-2080 profile doesn't list expansion card Rhythm Sets. Is this an oversight, or is there a way to get those to show up when using DP as well. (Note that I haven't been able to get ANY expansion card info to show up in DP, but figured this might be an issue when I do).

5. Do you normally have a single document for each DP project? Each synth in your set-up? One document for the entire rig? What's the best way to manage these? And should I be using Snapshots over manually dragging things?

Feel free to refer me to the manual. I've been using it, but it's kind of like reading the manual for a passenger plane... much of it is over my head because I haven't grasped some of the fundamental concepts.

Also, if some of this stuff is easier to explain verbally, I will gladly call anyone. I also have an iSight camera for audio or video conferencing if you prefer.

Thanks for any help you can give. I really want to use this program, and would *really* like to get beyond just using presets and start tweaking some of my own, but Unisyn ends up frustrating me to the point where I can't get work done.

[Shooshie]

Ray, I read your message, and I don't think your situation is hopeless, by any means. My problem is that not owning a JV-2080, it's going to be kind of hard for me to help you. These profiles are so different on each machine that there is sometimes very little overlap in the way they work.

But I can say a little now, and maybe we can work it out over time.

1) First of all, I download my entire setup from my synth/samplers. All banks. These load into a huge "device" window which contains all banks from every device with drop-down access to each bank.
2) Then, I take all those banks and load them into a new file. This is my "archival" patch file, which is searchable by keyword. I name this file, and then close it until I need it.
3) Now, I begin constructing specialty banks. These are for individual projects. I work a little differently than some people. Rather than do snapshots of the patches in DP, and set default patches, and all that, I set my banks up from Unisyn, and then either control the device from its front panel (for my Kurzweil) or from Unisyn (for my rack gear). I use specialty banks for this. To do this, I:
3a) create the patches I need either in Unisyn or directly in the device. To create them in Unisyn, I open a new window, drag in the patches I plan to use (drag then from my original "archival" file), and put them in the order I want them in.
3b) I modify those patches that need it (or create entirely new ones)
3c) Save this file with some identification to link it to the project it's for. If you modified the patches in the synth, and set up the bank there, first, you'll need to download that bank into Unisyn. Use the "Get Selected Items" command to do that (Command-G). For the Kurzweil, it will load the current bank, whether that bank happens to be Program, Setup, Master, or QuickAccess. Then save it with the name you prefer.
3d) Load banks to synth when needed. Use "Send Selected Items." (or whatever method your profile suggests)
4) when you create specialty banks with modified instruments, be sure to name the instruments something different than the patch from which they were created. Then, when you've finished, be sure to drag these NEW instruments into your Archival File for future instrument searches. Add a few keywords if necessary.

Why do I prefer this method over loading patch lists into DP? First of all, I do not like having program/patch changes in my DP files. These can cause havoc in certain situations during playback and editing. Also, I'm always testing instrumental combinations and new instruments, so I don't want my files jumping back to their old patch every time I rewind. This is why Unisyn is so important to me. I can dump the setup I want in my rack, then know that DP will play the instruments I have dumped. I use certain channels for certain types of instruments, and I have a "method" worked out so that all the correct instruments are in the correct places without having to go in and change MIDI channel assignments in my MIDI sequences.

That's about 90% of my process, right there.

I hope this helps, but I still don't know what to tell you about the JV-2080. You might be able to get MOTU to divulge the email address (or forward an email) to the guy who wrote the profile. Chances are his explanation wouldn't be that much better than the profile he wrote, but you never know.

I have at times been frustrated with a profile help, then had one of those epiphanies you speak of at some point, then everything flowed. Unfortunately, MOTU did not allow us to print the profile, or copy it for printing elsewhere, so I actually took screenshots of it (Command-Shift-4, then drag over the area to be copied), turned them in to PDFs, and printed them that way. I have a notebook with my profile help files printed out, and periodically I still learn something.

I wish it could be just easy as pie. For that to happen, they'd have to market a separate application for each synth, as it was in the old days with Opcode's many, many librarians. That would be incredibly expensive for both them and for us. I'll accept the inconvenience of a universal synth librarian for the savings it brings me. (not to mention the fact that the old Opcode single-librarian way would mean that 3/4ths of the units would never get a librarian anyway)

The stuff is inherently difficult to understand because it is created by Synth geeks, not your regular folk who have no interest in this kind of stuff. MIDI has never been intuitive or easy. There are people who actually thought creating MIDI commands in hex format was a huge breakthrough. And it was... but it was a bigger breakthrough when someone put that hex command under a button.

Good luck. Write back if/when there is something I can help you with. I'll always try when I get the time, even if I don't always know the answers.

Shooshie

[midiw]

Ray Toler,

your posting has helped me to come to grips with the fact that I am not the only one in motuland that just can't figure out Unisyn let alone working with it in Digital Performer.

[Shooshie]

Ok, you guys are starting to make me feel weird, as if I'm the only one who has managed to use Unisyn productively. Seriously, consider it the way I described above, where you operate your synth directly from Unisyn, rather than trying to get patch lists into DP. I just don't like having patch-change MIDI events in my MIDI files. Later when you change your mind about something, you have to go digging through there and find those things. Or I guess you could use DP's search features. But for me it's much easier to use a system, set up banks so that they work with that system to place the instruments I want where I want them. For instance, a bass track will always be, say, MIDI channel 7. Solo voices are MIDI 1-4. Percussion is MIDI-10. Etc. Then, when you set up a bank, you do it for the project with that in mind, creating a setup in which MIDI Channel 7 has your desired bass, and so forth. Then you just load it from Unisyn--takes about 3 to 10 seconds--and you're good to go.

That's what works for me, anyway. Of course, you can always put patch changes in there if you want them, but you'll know your patches because you created the bank in Unisyn. It doesn't really matter what the patch list in DP says, though you can make that work, too.

Anyway... Unisyn is a slow build. Spend some time with it, because you eventually get it working in a way that makes you wonder how you got along without it.

Shooshie

[Releaux]

Midiw: No, you are not alone.

Shooshie: First off, thanks for your very detailed post. I don't think you're the only one who's gotten things to work as I seriously doubt most people would take my approach of continuing to buy a product over the course of about 15 years (since I first bought X/OR for Amiga along with Dr. T's KCS).

Most people would give up and work without it. For some reason, though, I have this instinctive need to keep buying a program that I can't figure out.

Don't worry too much about being able to give me specific help on the JV profile... just hearing how other people use Unisyn in a more general way is helpful.

Since my initial post, I have figured out a few things like getting info from my various devices, as well as creating a "master" snapshot. I've found that Unisyn is slightly unstable for me when getting all patches and banks, but I'm guessing part of that is the inherent instability I've experienced since moving to the USB version of the MTP/AV (random episodes of the Mac forgetting it's there, etc.).

I haven't yet figured out how to get the expansion board patches to show up in DP via Unisyn, but I'm sure that will come at some point.

You bring up one of my major gripes with MOTU software in general: the need to operate outside regular Apple human interface guidelines. I can't tell you how many times I've been screwed up by the mini menus in DP (especially when they moved stuff OUT of them after years of training me to use them). In this case, the inability to print out profile help or save it into a more readable format is baffling.

Also, the fact that the manual makes absolutely no mention of OS X and keeps talking about OMS and FreeMidi keeps things a bit confusing as well. At the very least, I should have gotten a coupon in the box granting me the ability to get an updated manual for the OS X version when it became available. But then I get the feeling that Unisyn is sort of MOTU's red-headed step-child. Well.. after Mosaic, that is.

Believe it or not, I actually used and enjoyed Opcodes Galaxy + Editors and understood how things worked there. I think Unisyn is likely a more powerful and useful product, but the learning curve is VERY steep.

Anyway, thanks again for the detailed post. I need to go over it more closely, but I very much appreciate you outlining your workflow.

Anyone else have a method that they're using successfully (and are willing to share)?

[studiostuff]

Hey Ray,

I am using Unisyn one synth at a time instead of having all "devices" in one big list. (The "get all" or "send all" commands for my Kurz 2500 takes about a week to complete.)

I agree with you that the book is frustrating. But it is SO MUCH better than the original one. The original read like a document that was translated into an obscure foreign language and then back by people using dictionaries who spoke neither language...

The key thing for me with Unisyn recently is that Uni needs to be and remain "in sync" with the device.

This means (I think) that changes you make in Unisyn need to be sent to the device. And things you get from the device need to be stored in documents.... sort of as a "you were here" benchmarker.

Getting "all patches and banks" for one device at a time and then saving that stuff in a "document" let me see what I had.

Making changes in Unisyn and then saving them (you can drag most of this stuff) as new documents, which you have also then sent to the device, keeps the device and Uni in sync.

It's working pretty well for me after two or three days. It'll grow on ya. Throw the book away.

[thracks]

I'll join in here. Unisyn has always been a little like witchcraft to me. I've not yet updated to the OSX version yet because I just never used it that much. The main reason I got it in the first place was to use in conjunction with my Wavestation SR. Editing the Wavestation from the front panel is ridiculous, using Unisyn is only a little better. The one good thing I got out of Unisyn was a full backup of all my custom patches and performances in the Wavestation. The internal battery died, and after replacing it I was able to fully restore everything as it was when it died. That made it worthwhile.

But editing? I never really got a good grasp of it. I should try again, but right now I'm having too much fun with my soft synths.

The devices I own which are supported by Unisyn are...

Wavestation SR
Audity 2000 (w/extreme ROM)
Nord rack
DM5
Juno-106

I'd love to hear if anyone is an expert at using any of these with Unisyn (especially the Wavestation), maybe I'll jump back in

[Shooshie]

Thracks: I don't have any experience with any of the devices you listed. Sorry

Studiostuff: I guess you were exaggerating a little when you said it takes a week to dump the whole device into Unisyn or vice-versa. It SEEMS like it, though. You can watch it going through each program, setting, etc., and after a hundred or so you're just realizing "900 more to go for the Kurzweil... then just 4 more boxes to go!" I do keep a master list of all the instruments, but I also keep indiviudal lists of each bank, plus one huge searchable archive, and myriad little project files. The fact that we only have one kind of file to manage now makes that a LOT easier. In the old days it was hard to figure out what kind of file you needed to open, search in, or use for what kind of job. It was a file management nightmare.

And Ray: I'm glad to hear that you're making progress. I don't mean to sound like a Jedi coach here: "just let go... use the force, Ray!" But it's easier when you realize that what you see is what you get. It's not like Digital Performer where there seems always to be another layer of the onion to peel back. It's just all pretty much there on the surface. There's no mystery to it. Don't look for more than what's there. Unisyn is like a high-tech forklift. It has amazing power, but it still looks like a forklift, and all it does is lift stuff from your rack to the storage/customizing facility, and back. Librarians are pretty simple in concept: store your patches in a file, open any of them in an editor, then upload them back to the machine when you want. Unisyn adds one more step: the device list. That contains all your original info and downloads from each device you catalogue in Unisyn. Unfortunately, the device list isn't searchable. So you have to drag those over (all at once is ok) to a new document file. That's when the power of Unisyn springs to life under the hood. It turns that blank document into an indexed, alphabetized catalog with dependencies linked internally, so if you load Program 200, but it needs Keymap 150, it's going to know where that is, and what to do with it when you load 200 into the Kurz. Furthermore, Unisyn seems to already know how to keyword most of your patches for searches and groupings.

A real library uses a filing system which seems awkward at first, but when you start doing research you realize that it's a simple form of genius. Same with Unisyn. It's chief advantages are:
1) storing backups of your patches for restoration
2) cataloguing what you have for quick review and evaluation: letting you see your stuff all together.
3) searching your patches
4) editing/creating patches without the little buttons and tiny windows on rack gear
5) organizing patches into custom banks to upload for individual projects
6) exchanging patches with others

All this takes place in those few windows.

Now, about the editor: it looks extremely foreign when you first open it, but if you compare its features to those inside your gear, they are basically identical, usually with one or two little differences explained in the Profile Help. It just seems so much bigger in the synth, since you have to press so many buttons to get anywhere. The Editing Window is disorienting at first, but pretty soon you get completely comfortable working in it. Just don't try editing in Unisyn and on your synth at the same time. Unisyn expects you to leave the controls on your synth alone when you're working in Unisyn, so that it can find everything right where it left it.

Shooshie

[Releaux]

Thanks again to everyone who's been responding. I do remember the previous manual and agree that the current one is an improvement.

My primary desire for Unisyn is as an editor - I haven't liked editing any synth that came after about 1985. Once we got past the Poly 800 and Juno 106, it became too tedious with the increased number of features, settings, and complexity, and the decreased amount of screen real-estate.

I know there's a lot more power lurking inside my K2600 (I feel your pain on the week-long get-all patches & banks!), or my JV2080, or Mo'Phatt... but I don't have the patience or time to figure out editing from their front displays.

I'm actually very comfortable with Unisyn's editing window... I love having everything right there in one place. It's been the more mundane mechanics of which levers to push when driving the forklift (to steal Mooshie's metaphor) and where I'm supposed to drop which pallette.

All of these posts have helped me quite a bit. I liken it to one time when I went to a MOTU user group session and saw one guy drag across the time bar in the tracks overview window to select a region... Ah HAH! That's a cool way of working! I then showed him Hiro's Dot Trick for moving the counter with the numeric keypad, and he had the same reaction.

Finally, I'll provide one non-musical example. My wife and I had a deck built in our back yard. One of the areas was a circular raised area with a stone bench around about 1/3 of the circumference. I was very interested to see how they'd come up with the circle, since the rest of the design was more free-form curves.

I suspected that they had some very intricate contractor-level tools for creating a perfect circle concrete form. Whatever it was, I was sure it would be complex because creating a 12 foot circle was probably pretty difficult.

Imagine my surprise when the tool ended up being a stick with a nail in the top and a six-foot-long piece of string. They drove the stick in the ground at the center point, tied one end of the string to the nail, and the other end to a can of spray paint, then walked the string around and sprayed a perfect circle on the ground.

Not difficult at all... just working in a way that hadn't occurred to my mind that tries to make things more complex sometimes.

So to sum up, it's really great to hear about multiple ways to use a tool. I encourage anyone else who wants to chime in, especially about using Unisyn in conjunction with DP, to do so.

[RCory]

Sooshie - do you use the "save snapshot into DP" function? and in DP, load it?

[Shooshie]

No, I don't use Unisyn that way. I use it in a more "manual" fashion. When there needs to be a particular set of instruments loaded for each channel, I build that set in Unisyn, then upload it to the rack. Nothing in DP ever changes in that regard.

I don't like putting patch changes in my songs where I can help it. In variably, it causes me headaches later on down the line. So, I do it my way, which is more suited to the way I work.

Shooshie

[Ted Brewer]

I use Unisyn very similiar to Soosie, but when I'm composing or doing notation work , I usually have one device that I operate from the "default patch" feature in DP. This device is usually GM compatible, though. In learning Unisyn, it is best to start with one MIDI device that you are very familiar with the internal structure, then use Soosie's post, the manual, and the profile help. This should get you a good start. Remember also, Unisyn is limited by the sysex of the MIDI implementation by the manufacturer. So in the case of many Roland devices, you have to load the patches into the User bank of the device first, then load it into Unisyn, then save it, then repeat this process until you have downloaded ALL of the patches into a Unisyn Document. That is part of the "unfun" setup that many users get lost of frustrated with. But it is worth it, and it is better now, because of larger bulk dumps in the user bank of Roland devices, than when I loaded 960 patches ONE AT A TIME from the JD990 into Unisyn 1.5 a few years ago!

[RCory]

The only problem I find with the Shooshie Document method, is that the document doesn't save which channel a particular patch is on with a multi-timbre instrument...

or am I wrong?

[JBova515]

Hi guys,
Regarding the JV2080 It took me several days of trying before I could successfully get all the patches from all 8 expansion slots. After successfully uploading the first 4 expansion slots unisyn would freeze when starting 5 thru 8. I asked MOTU about this and the response I got was " Did you make sure the JV2080 is plugged into the MIDI interface correctly?"

When I replied that I was an advanced user and the only way I could get the results I did was to actually have the instrument and interface properly configured, I never heard from them again.

[Shooshie]

How did you finally get them all downloaded?

Shooshie