MOTUnation.com

Asensory wrote:

James Steele wrote:

Asensory wrote:)
* R with a bunch of *** after it = R ea per . Not sure why the forum software is filtering that, is it a dirty word on some planet?

It was a dirty word here to me as I felt they were engaging in unfair competitive practices, building market share with no real copy protection and pricing that amounted to product dumping. Just my personal beef with them. I decided I would not give them any search engine hits on this forum. Thanks.

Well, you're the boss. I personally wouldn't worry about what another company did or didn't do.

You may have noticed that this is a MOTU centric board. Many of us are loyal DP users and try to support MOTU. I am also one of those people. When that other DAW came on the scene they built a user base by undercutting everyone on price. That is IF they bought it. If you didn't, their "copy protection" was a nag screen that you only had to dismiss once per day. Essentially they built their user base quickly using what I viewed as predatory practices. They're were rewarded for this. Around the same time SOS ended the Performer Notes column and replaced it with a column focused on the DAW that SOS felt there was a bigger demand for coverage, thanks to a user base gained by what I felt was product dumping. I felt overall that's bad for the industry. So I decided they would not be rewarded for that here. It was and is a stand about principle. I enjoy the fact this is so rare today that people find it odd.

Though I try to keep some neutrality when it comes to DAW wars, DP is definitely dumped on more than most DAWs. I don't really get that, so I usually offer factual information to correct the serious misinformation that people are always posting about DP. DP's strong point is its depth, which also works against it when it comes to new users. You have to seek out workflow paths in DP; there's not just one way to work, and for that reason it can be confusing to new users. Bring a workflow you like into focus, and DP suddenly becomes your best friend.

As for "that other DAW" which shall remain nameless, I support James 100% for his efforts at drawing attention to the sorry business practices that leapfrogged it to such popularity among new users. MOTUNation's policy may not have a lot of impact on the product, but at least James is standing for what he — and many of us — believe. In an age where anything goes to get what you want and cheating is considered acceptable, even admirable business practice, that's rare and laudable.

Shooshie

Michael Canavan wrote:...
I have enough in my itunes account from cashing in pocket change for vouchers to get Logic, and Logic no doubt is an amazing program, but I think at this point it's redundant to go for another DAW that merely duplicates the functionality of DP, I think I'll wait until I have enough to Final Cut Pro X...

For this DP user, the reasons to have Logic are a) to open GB and Logic projects and export the audio and MIDI (quick and easy) so that I can import into DP for editing. b) if I ever needed to automate Autotune–haven't done it in years but if I ever have the need... c) Logic can import MusicXML. The files can be exported... see (a).

If you have access to Apple's EDU store, you can get Logic, FCP, MainStage, Compressor and Motion for the price of Logic. I set it up using my daughter's school but could have used the one where my wife teaches.
https://www.apple.com/us_edu_126406/sho ... -education

After you make the purchase, you are emailed 5 codes, one for each app. You then log into the App Store, paste the codes in and the apps will automatically download (do not click Buy or you'll be charged again).

I already had a couple of the apps. The App Store told me there was no problem with emailing the unused codes to my daughter so that she could use them.

I have switched to Studio One 3 Professional for most projects now and rate it highly (I nearly went to Cubase but Presonus made a half price offer and I got Studio One for less than Logic and less than Cubase) - but I still use DP for some editing - I have not discounted using it for new projects in the future (especially if they update with new improvements).

I have pretty much ditched Reason as Studio One has really good VI's and a good sampler (with editor). Melodyne integration in Studio One is also very good - however DP is still a good DAW to have.

In the end it depends on your modus operandi and how it fits with a DAW as some do things better than others. But I have never had problems with my plugins in Studio One - and quite often I have DP and Studio One open at the same time - and I still have no problems. In fact it is useful as you can easily dump an audio or MIDI file from either into the other and use the strengths of that DAW or this one. I shall continue to pay to update DP and don't feel disloyal for using another professional DAW - I have paid for it and will continue to support it and use it. DAWS are relatively inexpensive for what you get and so it would be silly not to have a few - although I draw the line at Reaper.

Guitar Gaz wrote:I have switched to Studio One 3 Professional for most projects now and rate it highly (I nearly went to Cubase but Presonus made a half price offer and I got Studio One for less than Logic and less than Cubase) - but I still use DP for some editing - I have not discounted using it for new projects in the future (especially if they update with new improvements)

Presonus doesn't seem to be interested in OMF/AAF, and that's a big deal breaker for me. I'd love to try it (I have SO3 Artist that came with my Faderport8), but I can't consider it for serious work, I need AAFs...

I have now completely switched to Logic (and PT), and have no use for DP anymore. Although I've been using DP for 20 years, I simply can't stand the messy UI, unreadable fonts and awkward workflow compared to others. Unless MOTU addresses some issues in version 10, and gives us something a little more substancial than an outdated "never-to-be-updated-again" synth to make up for the lack of included VIs, I have no reason to come back to DP now.

Morpheo wrote:I have now completely switched to Logic (and PT), and have no use for DP anymore. Although I've been using DP for 20 years, I simply can't stand the messy UI, unreadable fonts and awkward workflow compared to others. Unless MOTU addresses some issues in version 10, and gives us something a little more substancial than an outdated "never-to-be-updated-again" synth to make up for the lack of included VIs, I have no reason to come back to DP now.

So why do you still participate at a DP-focused board? Just to bash DP? Trying to understand.

By the way, the original post here has absolutely nothing to do with this particular forum and belongs in the OT/Theoretical discussions. It's moved.

James Steele wrote: So why do you still participate at a DP-focused board? Just to bash DP? Trying to understand.

Post partum?

Morpheo wrote: I have now completely switched to Logic (and PT), and have no use for DP anymore. Although I've been using DP for 20 years, I simply can't stand the messy UI, unreadable fonts and awkward workflow compared to others. Unless MOTU addresses some issues in version 10, and gives us something a little more substancial than an outdated "never-to-be-updated-again" synth to make up for the lack of included VIs, I have no reason to come back to DP now.

Funny, the thing is with DAWs in general is how you use them. I compose in DAWs, write out all the parts for a song, then work with a vocalist and sometimes drummer to flesh it out. The main reason I stick with DP and to a lessor degree Live is I'm not 100% convinced of the arrangement of a song until the very end for say 80% of the stuff I write, so the ability to work in a non linear way is a huge plus. I composed in Logic for years, for pop music it's great, the looping is arguably easier to work with than in DP, but when a song needed rearranging it was always far less intuitive and straightforward than working with DP and Chunks, muted tracks at the bottom of the Arrange screen with parts that aren't currently in the song etc. involved a lot more left brain thinking than I wanted at that point, the rest of the program is well done for the most part, saving some audio and MIDI quirks that have you using i/o devices to set things up other DAWs do with no worries, but a total linear DAW isn't what I want, DP and to a smaller degree Live fit my workflow better.

Plus, AND I've said this a million times, embedded instruments are a PITA if you work in more than one DAW, and most of them aren't half as deep as VST/AU's, over the years I've collected quite a large cache of plug ins, and couldn't care less about embedded instruments, it's the things that you can't buy as an ad on that I care about in a DAW, embedded instruments come in dead last. Seriously, any DAW can host Komplete, the Air instrument collection, U-He, Sound Toys, Fabfilter, Waves, Arturia, IK, UVI, iZotope, PSP etc. etc. I would go as far to argue anyone complaining about Apple embedding Camel Audio Alchemy should never ask any DAW developer for embedded plug ins, since Apple is just following end user requests by buying up great developers products and embedding them into their Logic, MainStage environment.

Shooshie wrote:Though I try to keep some neutrality when it comes to DAW wars, DP is definitely dumped on more than most DAWs. I don't really get that, so I usually offer factual information to correct the serious misinformation that people are always posting about DP. DP's strong point is its depth, which also works against it when it comes to new users. You have to seek out workflow paths in DP; there's not just one way to work, and for that reason it can be confusing to new users. Bring a workflow you like into focus, and DP suddenly becomes your best friend.

Bringing that workflow together can be as frustrating as what I experience with Excel. That's not Excel or DP's 'fault', it's that the product is extremely flexible, and if you come from DAW like Cubase etc. it's readily apparent how you're to use Cubase, there's a timeline, and you have a set of key commands, and functions you can perform on that timeline. With DP you can work in multiple ways: in a single Sequence/Chunk, using Chunks as building blocks, with or without V-Racks, using Chunks as different mixes of the same song, or using Sequence/Chunks for completely different songs, or using Sequence Chunks as variations on a theme for film etc. You can use a Sequence Chunk to put together all these variations or you can use the Song window to do that. I'm sure I missed some workflows there, but compare that to a single arrangement and mixer window with maybe separate MIDI and audio editor windows. For most DAW users everything I mentioned above happens in those windows, and to do a lot of what you can do in a single DP project involves importing from other projects in Logic, Cubase etc.

With complexity comes a price, in terms of users initially being scared off, mostly if they come from other DAWs in my anecdotal assessment. In contrast Live is set up to be dead simple for people to get their feat wet in, it's issues come when you expect it to have features of traditional DAWs, but at first everything seems so intuitive people gush about it on their forums.

Anyway, just saying I get it to a degree, DP is threatening in it's open ended approach for some people.

Kind of worn out from working my day job for 14 hours straight and barely sleeping, then going straight to computer problems at home.

My main recollection from notes that I took at the time Cubase 8.5 came out, is that its Drum Editor is the most advanced and also that it does the best/quickest/easiest job of auto-mapping for quickly auditioning drum MIDI patterns.

I haven't tried that yet. I've mostly explored Cubase out of curiosity as I know more people who use it than any other DAW aside from PT. I need to be conversant on it as some people are eventually going to insist on sending me Cubase project files.

James Steele wrote:So why do you still participate at a DP-focused board? Just to bash DP?

um, no, not at all. Just stating my opinion, if that's ok. When the next version comes out, I'll gladly pay for the upgrade if it's worth it*. DP is a great DAW otherwise I wouldn't have used it for so long. But there are things that have become quite frustrating over the years and I hope MOTU will address some of these issues in future versions (questionable AAF/OMF support, GUI, click countoff with wrong tempo, instrument tracks, to name a few). I like to link this forum doesn't just exist to blindly praise MOTU and DP.

DP is a great program, but sadly, right now, I can do my work more effectively elsewhere. That doesn't mean I won't "come back". And that doesn't mean my goal is to "bash DP". After 20+ years of using DP, I feel I'm free to voice my opinion. I continue to pay close attention to this forum because you can always learn something. Having said that, OMF/AAF problems go back to several versions before DP9, and I find it a bit disappointing that MOTU doesn't seem to be focused on solving them. Those who don't need that kind of compatibility may find this irrelevant, but I work in film music and I need a perfectly reliable way to import and export PT sessions into/from DP.

* Thanks to MOTU's amazing upgrade policy, I'm still eligible for upgrades. See, I do have some positive things to say...

Sometimes I feel like I'm in an alternate reality, as there has never been a time like the present in terms of my feelings about how far ahead of the pack MOTU and DP are, in terms of performance, reliability, compatibility, and the workflow of a composer and recording engineer.

I did struggle a bit with the fonts, being over-50, but my new retina-based iMac has completely transformed the visual experience of DP for me, and the real clunker at this time is StudioOne, followed by Logic Pro. Only the latest Cubase offering (a change for them) competes in legibility.

It just goes to show how different our systems and workflows are -- otherwise there wouldn't be so many DAW vendors out there still. I think it's great that there hasn't been consolidation, as in other areas of the audio industry. Competition keeps everyone strong.

Great info, thanks everyone. This forum is one of the best and yes, Live is the DAW I would choose to work in conjunction with DP. It makes sense.

Asensory wrote:Great info, thanks everyone. This forum is one of the [...] and yes, Live is the DAW I would choose to work in conjunction with DP. It makes sense.

Come on! Don't be shy... You can say it...