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Phil O wrote:The real problem I see with vintage mics is vacuum tubes. NOS tubes are becoming scarce and the few that are being manufactured now are crap as far as I can tell.

Manley sells plenty of tubes, some of them new (and if they're good enough for Manley...): http://www.tubesrule.com/category_s/57.htm

Phil O wrote: I think there are some FET mics out there that sound great and I've decided not to invest in anything with tubes. If Slate is getting the vintage tube sound without using actual tubes, I say, "Bravo!"

IMO, it would be a mistake to think of "tube-ness" as something which can be added like a sauce. Pro audio designs, intended to be linear and clean, are not the same as overdriven guitar amps. From Manley's site, referring to classic gear (tube and solid-state alike): "These classic products were not designed to colour the signal or add distortion - quite the opposite." If you're intentionally overdriving them (like driving mic preamps for distortion) that's a different thing, of course.

I'm not an EE, but my understanding is that for the purposes of pro audio design, the most important characteristic of tube circuits is simplicity: a minimalist approach which requires fewer parts and less negative feedback. THD characteristics may also be different between solid-state and tube designs. So, while tubes may "add" something to the signal, their sound could also be characterized as the *absence* of artifacts from typical solid-state designs. This isn't to say that solid-state is bad - just that it's different.

If you start with signal from a solid-state mic, to really make it sound like a tube mic you'd first need to *remove* the solid-state characteristics. Since those characteristics are added harmonics and the effects of greater negative feedback, I'm not sure how you'd do that. You'd certainly want to start with a very clean & neutral solid-state design.

For more very pro-tube insights on the technical aspects of tubes in pro audio, see http://mail.manley.com/tube_talk.php and http://mail.manley.com/mantra.php

None of this is to say that mic modeling isn't useful in practice. I'm sure that people will make great music with it.

The only tube that is hard to find and very expensive is the VF14 for a U47, All the rest are somewhat available.

Yes the tubes are available, but if you've got the original specs (I've still got some old tube manuals) and you put them on a curve tracer right out of the box, they often don't meet those specs. I suspect the NOS stuff is reaching it's shelf life and the stuff that's being manufactured now just isn't up to snuff. I've worked on old tube guitar amps and in some cases needed to make modifications just to hit the right bias points with new tubes installed. From what I've seen the quality control just isn't there.

Phil

Phil O wrote:Yes the tubes are available, but if you've got the original specs (I've still got some old tube manuals) and you put them on a curve tracer right out of the box, they often don't meet those specs. I suspect the NOS stuff is reaching it's shelf life and the stuff that's being manufactured now just isn't up to snuff. I've worked on old tube guitar amps and in some cases needed to make modifications just to hit the right bias points with new tubes installed. From what I've seen the quality control just isn't there.

Phil

Don't tubes go through a breaking-in period? I've always thought tubes were kind of a moving target when it comes to audio, so I never paid a lot of attention to the specs and graphs. In addition, I've always used tube amps, at least up until I started using powered monitors, and I'm pretty sure those tubes require a breaking-in period. Maybe they do that at the factory for some tubes.

My only tube mics are Neumann M149s. In fact, I probably need to replace those tubes. Sheesh... I guess it's time to start looking for those. I dread that. I've been using only U87s and AKG 414XLS, because the M149s haven't seemed right lately. (may be the circumstances, though)

I once left an M149 on for a week, because I had asked the artist to turn it off, and she said she did. Later, I covered it and left it set up for the next session in a week, but I didn't look at the box to see if it was off. It wasn't. I found it when we were setting up for the next session. It still sounded the same, but I worry about it.

Shoosh

There's no break in period that I know of. Back in the day, we used to take one out of the box and plug it in. There are thermal stability issues. General rule of thumb was that for mission critical applications you'd let them warm up for 30 minutes. Sure, from the first time you heat one up it's characteristics will change over it's life span. So I suppose some audiophile who prefers boutique cables will espouse the benefits of a break in period, but back when we were still designing with them we'd just plug 'em in and go.

I've designed with tubes, FETs, BJTs, op-amps, and combinations of the aforementioned. I honestly believe good sound has more to do with good circuit design than what active component types you use. Sure, you need quality components, but I don't think tubes are better than BJTs or FETs or whatever.

I read somewhere that Neumann hand selects tubes for their mics (or maybe they used to). That means you buy a large stock, test each one, then use only the ones that meet your specs (which may be tighter specs than the tubes' manufacturer's specs). I don't know what they do with the rejects.
But, it's part of the reason why I just avoid them now. I'd do some homework on that. If they still hand select tubes you may want to buy directly from Neumann.

Phil

monkey man wrote:
[Flings hefty bolus in the Wax's general direction, disappearing from view without any knowledge as to the accuracy or consequences of the shot...]

[Hollers from around the corner]
That'll be my parting shot, Wax, and everyone else. Love ya'll and see you soon!

Hey Monkey Man when do you get your VMS?

waxman wrote:In the Slate shootout at NRG they tried multiple vintage 251s etc... I have owned a half dozen U87's and they were anything but consistent. Go to any studio with a big mic locker and you will see the vintage great mics labeled, "bright, dull, open, good one, warm etc." What does all that mean? Not consistency.

I hadn't thought about that, but you're totally right. Slate's mic is probably many times more consistent than most of the mics it models.. some of them even when they were new! And I agree, I never heard a U87 that sounded like another U87, and those don't even have tubes.

kassonica wrote:The only tube that is hard to find and very expensive is the VF14 for a U47, All the rest are somewhat available.

Even then, my Pearlman TM-1 exchanges the VF14 with a NOS EF80, which Dave claims is electrically identical to the VF, except for the heater voltage. I don't feel like I'm missing anything by not having the original U47 tube.. however, I was looking for a 47'ish sound, not an exact replica.

waxman wrote:Hey Monkey Man when do you get your VMS?

It's been sitting at the (interstate) store for about 6 weeks now, Greg; I ordered it in March and it arrived mid-July, IIRC.

I figured I'm better off with its being there 'cause it's only gonna serve to further frustrate me given that I'm still nowhere near being able to record and mix yet.

Thankfully the "free" 2nd mic pack shouldn't be too much of a drama to qualify for. Even if there's no record of the order's initial date (my vendor ordered through another who's not exactly available), I could always, I figure, put Slate support in touch with my guy and he'll be able to confirm it all, if only verbally. I'm hoping that there'll be decent-enough weight given to the model / serial number that should, I'm hoping yet again, indicate when the system was shipped at least.

As I suggested, I'm truly stuck in the mud for the foreseeable future, so it might as well stay in its packaging up in Canberra (in the ACT - Australian Capital Territory)

Thanks for asking, bud.

monkey man wrote:

waxman wrote:Hey Monkey Man when do you get your VMS?

It's been sitting at the (interstate) store for about 6 weeks now, Greg; I ordered it in March and it arrived mid-July, IIRC.

I figured I'm better off with its being there 'cause it's only gonna serve to further frustrate me given that I'm still nowhere near being able to record and mix yet.

Thankfully the "free" 2nd mic pack shouldn't be too much of a drama to qualify for. Even if there's no record of the order's initial date (my vendor ordered through another who's not exactly available), I could always, I figure, put Slate support in touch with my guy and he'll be able to confirm it all, if only verbally. I'm hoping that there'll be decent-enough weight given to the model / serial number that should, I'm hoping yet again, indicate when the system was shipped at least.

As I suggested, I'm truly stuck in the mud for the foreseeable future, so it might as well stay in its packaging up in Canberra (in the ACT - Australian Capital Territory)

Thanks for asking, bud.

Aha so you are down under... As far as the free 2nd mic pack all you need to do is send an email just tell them you got it before Aug. 31. I'll pm you the guy you need to email. They will give it to you not problem. I have seen them do this a few times and other products. Steve himself gets involved. I think they may be the best company in music instrument manufacturer I have ever dealt with. You'll love it... The fix is in. We may see it today. Take care and keep getting stronger my brother!

Thank you, Greg!

Hopefully, as I suggested, there won't be any issue proving I've bought it 'cause the store hasn't done any paperwork yet. I've had the credit sitting there for months; the sale just hasn't been formalised and the product delivered.

So Waxman and others. How can I hear the emulations whilst tracking and not lose all my running plugs for the orchestration. I normally work at 256buffer.

Labman, it appears that (at least with my system) it's not gonna happen. Someone suggested a buffer of 32 and to disable all other plugins to avoid the latency issue. And just use the mic sims and other Slate plugins post recording.

A newer Mac Pro with Thunderbolt and the appropriate A/D converter might help. I don't "think" I can upgrade my 2009 Mac Pro 4,1 to Thunderbolt.

And then spend another 800.00 or so for the box is not high on my priority list!

Buzzy


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Thank you Buzzy. I dont know how I can get the right mic technique of I can't hear the color. Hmmmm.

I'm still researching and experimenting.

I did record a rock tenor sax yesterday just using the Slate mic like I would any other mic. Sounded good.

I have a male singer coming by tomorrow and I'll try it on him, too.


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