Community bug list, ya/nay?

[bayswater]

But then again, it's an easy source of confusion if you don't know what MOTU intended. Is the manual wrong or is the program not performing correctly? Does that make sense?

Phil

After some more thought.. I think the clear divide between these two things is as such:

Manual errata: documentation that differs from how DP has always worked, or how features are marketed.

DP bug: behaviour that differs from documentation that does not fall under 'manual errata status'.

If the documentation appears to be incorrect and the behaviour seems wrong, then I think it's safe to classify it as a bug. If DP behaves how it always has or as advertised, then it's clearly manual errata.

Does that seem like a reasonable distinction between the two possibilities?


(fwiw, I don't plan on adding any of this complex language to the new post should I do it. I will try to explain things as simply and concisely as possible)

I think most of it will be straightforward. There will be bugs. Most people know one when they see one, unless we get too bogged down on whether it's a design flaw, a coding error, poorly implemented features, a GUI glitch, an inefficiency, etc.

And there are errors in the manual, and most will be typos, bad references, missing or incorrect figures, etc. Again, we'll know one when we see it.

To answer your question, Robert, the last time I tagged them, there were about 150 errata, most of them trivial typos that cause little confusion. Maybe 35-40 that could mislead a new user, and maybe 20 or so that leave you wondering What the heck? I haven't checked for some time whether these have been corrected in the V9 manual. With V9 releases. there were instance where the manual did not appear to be updated.

And now the manual is a PDF, there are bugs in the manual. Links and figures sometimes don't appear or work. I guess we can call these manual errata.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I think this thread has shown the difficulties in creating any "technical" bug thread . We have diverged from speaking of bugs into a long discussion about manuals. Quite amazing. I must say, before this thread, I had never thought of a manual having the slightest thing to do with a "bug". Onward with the discussion and by the time we're all tired out arguing about manuals, no one will have the energy to make a bug thread .

I totally agree. Again, the thread titles asks: Ya [sic], or nay.

Na [sic].

[MIDI Life Crisis]

The thread is taking on an air which eminds me a little of this classic...

BUG！BUG！DP Serious BUG Motu！ You have to face.

[bayswater]

We can add it to the bug list.

Bug: Notes Blew. Submitted: 10-09-17. Status: Not faced.

[Robert Randolph]

So this is what I'm thinking so far:

---

What constitutes a bug for the purposes of this thread -

• 1.) Crashing DP
• 2.) Crashing other software when executing a function in DP
• 3.) Behaviour contrary to documentation
• 4.) Undocumented changes that do not work contrary to expectation or marketing.
• 5.) Inconsistent display of information
• 6.) Display glitches
• 7.) Inconsistencies with repeated identical input
• 8.) Undocumented changes from previous versions
• 9.) Any behaviour that has been accepted as 'buggy' by motu. Requires proof of a techlink response.
• 10.) Well documented performance decrease from a previous version of DP

What is not a bug:

• Performance differences unless reproducible across a wide range of systems
• Desire for DP to behave differently than documented
• Issues that can't be reproduced by at least 2 people
• Reports from non-current versions (unless corroborated to be present in a current version)
• Issues with hardware unless they are completely unique to DP
• Manual Errata
• Any issues with third-party plugins that can be reproduced in at least 2 other DAWs.
• Anything that primarily compares DP's behaviour to another DAW
• Behaviour that only manifests in the presence of uncommon system configuration.

To file a bug, please copy and paste the following code in to your post. Replace the "XXXXXXXXX" with the appropriate information.

Code: Select all

[b]Type of bug:[/b]

XXXXXXXXX

[b]System Specifications[/b]

[list]
[*]OS: XXXXXXXXX

[*]Digital Performer Version: XXXXXXXXX[/list]


[b]Description of bug:[/b]

[list]
[*] What is expected to occur: XXXXXXXXX

[*] What actually occurs: XXXXXXXXX
[/list]


[b]Steps to reproduce bug:[/b]

XXXXXXXXX


[b]Citations:
[/b]
[list]
[*]Manual page, marketing page or video describing feature: XXXXXXXXX

[*]Screen shot or transcript of techlink: XXXXXXXXX[/list]


[b]Workarounds:[/b]

XXXXXXXXX

----

From there I would maintain status for each bug, date of discovery, version of fixing, list user confirmations with post links and include a link to video/image/animated gif where necessary.

I do feel like manual errata needs to be a separate thread, since it appear the volume of errors is rather huge. I will consider this later if someone else doesn't take up the reins before I get a chance.

I'm obviously still open to feedback, so let me know what you think of this so far. Thank you!

[cuttime]

Thanks for your hard work, Robert. I do think that reproducibility on at least two systems should be a requirement for a bug, but of course I'm sure that that would be open to debate as well.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

For one, it's starting to sound like a witchhunt. Second, is it up to one or even a group to determine something as a "bug?" Wouldn't one need access to the actual code in question and some testing of that code to determine what's a bug and what's "something else?"

Whether or not MOTU releases known bugs is another matter. The end users claiming to establish what constitutes a "bug" is highly suspect and ripe for abuse by otherwise disgruntled and inept end users, hardware and/or software incompatibilities.

I'm totally against the idea of a bug thread. We can already report our suspected bugs on this site. I really don't think a new dedicated section or thread is necessary and may well be counterproductive.

Again: I vote nay.

[bayswater]

For one, it's starting to sound like a witchhunt. Second, is it up to one or even a group to determine something as a "bug?" Wouldn't one need access to the actual code in question and some testing of that code to determine what's a bug and what's "something else?"

Whether or not MOTU releases known bugs is another matter. The end users claiming to establish what constitutes a "bug" is highly suspect and ripe for abuse by otherwise disgruntled and inept end users, hardware and/or software incompatibilities.

I'm totally against the idea of a bug thread. We can already report our suspected bugs on this site. I really don't think a new dedicated section or thread is necessary and may well be counterproductive.

Again: I vote nay.

Your argument convinces me that it's a good thing.

As you say, people already report what they consider to be bugs on the forum. That includes all those we might consider inept and disgruntled, and things that few of us would consider bugs. So Robert's efforts can only improve the current situation. Reports of bugs can be moved to the topic if they are posted in the wrong place, reports that result from ineptitude and anger can be deleted from the list, and reports that fail to meet the definition can be purged.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I'm not surprised.

[Gravity Jim]

A large majority of "WTF is happening?" posts on this forum begin by declaring the problem a "bug," either in DP or OS X. Does anybody really need to document that? And who is going to maintain this list, removing "known bugs" when they are shown to be user error?

[MIDI Life Crisis]

A large majority of "WTF is happening?" posts on this forum begin by declaring the problem a "bug," either in DP or OS X. Does anybody really need to document that? And who is going to maintain this list, removing "known bugs" when they are shown to be user error?

[Timeline]

On the other hand, a verified list with updates to show MOTU fixes would be VERY helpful to me who refuses to invest in the update until everything important is known. I think as a senior member of this site that it could indeed benefit sales of DP starting with me when I can safely move to 9 without issues that are new to 8.07.

I have noticed over the years there is always rejection of members who wish to find some truth about MOTU software and to be fair I think the company is working as best they can to support DP, considering Apple has changed the OS soooo many times since the original version. I don't blame MOTU for taking their time on a maintenance release.

I'm more pissed at Apple actually than MOTU at this point. I really want to carry on with DP. I know it well and love it. I'm sure many feel the same.

To finish, please let the list proceed and to all you more advanced DP users like Shooshie, please write into this one or reference other posts which have claimed issues. I would appreciate for sure.

Thanks, Gary Brandt, Engineer Producer artist. Recent tune written & produced totally in DP: "Melody Maker". 192SR 24bit download: http://www.eirec.com/MelodyMaker.wave.zip Pub, A.S.C.A.P. Pen Culture Music

[Robert Randolph]

A large majority of "WTF is happening?" posts on this forum begin by declaring the problem a "bug," either in DP or OS X. Does anybody really need to document that? And who is going to maintain this list, removing "known bugs" when they are shown to be user error?

The entire point of this is to reduce the 'wtf is happening' posts by requiring specification and clarification for bug reports. It is my expectation that if there is a consolidated and organized bug list, then adopting a 'zero tolerance' policy for poor bug reports will be completely reasonable.

I would be maintaining it, and James and Shooshie have already offered to help.

This would be my first time running a public bugtracking post for a DAW, but I have administrated and moderated 2 private bugtrackers for 2 other DAWs in the past. I also have a good number of VST plugins I've developed in the past (http://www.betabugsaudio.com/) so my familiarity with audio development is relatively decent.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

So if the same "bug" happens to EVERYBODY who uses Waves but not to those who don't use Waves, does that qualify as a "DP" bug? Even if it doesn't happen in other DAWs?

[Timeline]

So if the same "bug" happens to EVERYBODY who uses Waves but not to those who don't use Waves, does that qualify as a "DP" bug? Even if it doesn't happen in other DAWs?

Of coarse not. Waves is known to have issues and I would consider them invalid for considering issues in DP