Ever feel like DP users are a dying breed?

[artfarm1]

Dying breed? The only 'dying breed' is well-rounded, educated musicians.

But, they (we) do exist and we aspire to use great tools like DP.

MOTU should keep making inroads to any colleges, tech schools, or universities that have decent education programs that really teach art and music, recording, mixing, multi-media, etc. Get MOTU into the forward thinking, innovative schools that recognize the need to teach theory, history, technique, and art of music and sound design.

People who think of music as nothing other than 'content' probably don't need DP, or would be better served by using one of many other so-called music software programs.

Like a great car, DP can do anything! It'll get you from point A to point B however you want.

I don't think MOTU should 'dumb down' anything, whether it's in their marketing or products.

Advertise like the 'BMW of music software'.... for those that don't want to play with toys.

[Gravity Jim]

Reading crap people say on the Internet is not market research. In fact, it's not even close. So the first assumption - that MOTU has "an image problem" (an outdated idea) - is already based on faulty intelligence.

Since we don't have access to MOTU's actual market research or sales numbers, we have to take what real evidence we can from the outside, knowing that idle forum chatter is not real evidence.

MOTU, in addition to its music software, designs and manufactures a line of market leading audio and video interfaces. If the user base for the software was shrinking, a company in that position would likely focus more and more resources toward marketing the hardware products while devoting fewer resources to the software, with an eye toward bring the software business to EOL.

And yet, DP 8 not only represents a huge amount of work, it was ported to PC for the first time ever and made available for 30 trial for the first time ever. The list of new features is a bit longer than usual, and MOTU's repsonse to bugs and user requests has never been this fast or complete.

That is real evidence, and it sure doesn't say "dying software." I'm going back to work and will continue ignoring what teenagers say on the Internet.

PS: in at least three 2013 "Fastest Growing Careers" lists from magazines like Forbes, "Music Composer" (not DJ or EDM Producer or Rock Star) was listed among the top 10, with the mobile-device fueled boom in video game development credited as the reason. As DP is widely accepted as being particular well suited for sound-for-picture, this would bode well for further acceptance.

[David Polich]

James, I just want to be having the same conversation about DP11 and DP12...

And we will.

[aweaselkid]

That is real evidence, and it sure doesn't say "dying software." I'm going back to work and will continue ignoring what teenagers say on the Internet.

JIm, with due respect, this is what frustrates me about someone serving up an alternative opinion. I, and I don't think anyone offering concern or constructive criticism, said anything about DP being a dying software. If you were to skim this post, and stumble across your response, someone would think this is what the "other side" is arguing, that and the "oh, so you want DP to be like Live so you can go make your 'beatz'" perspective.

DP is great. Continue to be great. As you grow, listen to the opinions of your customers. Weigh the opinions of your longest customers, those who have been around and using your product for years, the most. I just think it is wise, as you do this, to grow along side your product, and have the forsight to pave a promising path for its future. Reach beyond what you have already have command of, and see if there is anything you can do to inspire a demographic that isn't your strongest. In doing so, simply evaluate how others do command a certain demographic, and see what analogous improvements you can make. Some demographics don't make sense to invest in, but the youth is always a necessary investment. I just don't see how this opinion is ridiculous.

[Shooshie]

Evolution of a DAW user:

• Stage 1:
  Wow, sure enjoying my new iMac. Wish I could make some music like everyone else. HEY! What's this? Garageband? Oh, cool… it's already got the music recorded. All I have to do is fit it together like a jigsaw puzzle. I can do that! Hey Ma, look at me! I'm a composer and a musician, and I've never even played a note!
  
  Stage 2:
  Man, this is embarrassing. I keep putting my stuff out there, and people keep telling me it sounds like it was made in Garageband. Trouble is, it WAS made in Garageband. I guess it's time to pay the $200 to become a full professional recording artist, and get Logic!
  
  Stage 3:
  Oh man. This Logic stuff is hard. I can't figure out where anything is. But I've managed to get a few things out there. Also, I'm starting to pick up a few chords on the keyboard, and people keep telling me to practice scales and learn my keys. Well, I'll keep working on it. Maybe in time. But for now, I need something more "cool." I wonder what the cool guys use?
  
  Stage 4:
  Piece o cake! This Live Pro is cool! I'm starting to sound like everyone else now. Checking out Acid, too. How cool is that? I tried recording a song I've been working out on the keyboard. Wish I could add orchestra parts to it, and kind of flesh it out. I wonder what people do when they want a song to sound like "just them" and not all this other stuff?
  
  Stage 5:
  Jeez… This Pro Tools rig set me back a lot-o-dough, but at last I'm at the top of the heap. I can do anything the pros can do. I just wonder why all the plugins and VI's cost double what I was paying in Logic and Live. It's like owning a Mercedes. Works great, but everything costs more. Now, I wonder how you make great MIDI tracks to go along with the audio you're recording? And getting them in time with the audio… And editing all this stuff… Man, nobody said it was going to be easy, but… does everyone spend this much time doing simple things? C'mon… I'm too old for this. There's GOT to be an easier, better way.
  
  Old Age:
  Ahhh… Why didn't I find Digital Performer when I was a kid? I didn't even hear about it until a few years ago. I guess kids don't use it. Most of 'em never even heard of it? Maybe if MOTU marketed to them…, nah. This is an old-people's tool. I couldn't have used this when I was a kid. But now that I know about music, know what I want, this makes it possible. Who cares what everyone else is using? I finally found something that works.

So, maybe it turns out that DP is a tool for old men and women, for when they know what they want and they don't want to have to jump through hoops to get it there. Maybe that's why MOTU doesn't have to market to kids. They know that sooner or later, the kids will come to them.



Shooshie

[Michael Canavan]

Some demographics don't make sense to invest in, but the youth is always a necessary investment. I just don't see how this opinion is ridiculous.

I can't agree with this more, and I think this is the heart of the issue that irks people here.
I'm in my 40's and most people here are, or older. Some of that has to do with DP being a tool more suited for hardcore musicians, plenty of tools for studio and orchestral work, great legacy control over hardware etc. and some of it has to do with the simple fact that for others like me, we started on Performer or Vision in our youth.
The kicker is every piece of software has weak and strong points. I've used Live and Logic for years so I don't share the prejudice against those DAWs that people seem to have here, they're perfectly fine for doing all kinds of music. The kicker being that DP would be much much faster if you were to be making orchestral work IMO, and film, and editing/mixing down tracks of any kind for release etc. IMO anyway Logic excels with basic songwriting, electro of all kinds. It's good for that, same with Live. Where they fall down IMO is in the above mentioned areas, possible, but not ideal solutions.
Thing is I think you're right, Logic and Live are well marketed to young musicians, and MOTU has a rough road that way, because once you know Logic or Live coming to DP is going to be weird, things will seem out of place, and the weak willed will give up. [the same holds true in reverse but I digress] What we as end users passionate about DP confront in our daily lives is 20 something kids who have no idea that DP is good for anything other than film work. I run into it all the time, and the marketing of Live and Logic on them is huge!

I think someone before me said it best with the BMW angle. The only snag with that is the "devil you know" phenomena; you can score to film with Logic, Cubase etc. so it's difficult to spend $400 for a cross grade and learn a new DAW just because a feature like sync is vastly superior in DP. With that in mind I do think it's an area for us as end users and MOTU to think about.

Anyway I get that DP isn't going away, but I get that people are concerned about it's future as well.

PS Actually I think MOTU are doing a great job online marketing wise, with the tutorial videos they've been releasing and advertising etc. The only area where I think Apple and Ableton are really getting over is in seminars. Here in Seattle I don't think there's been one clinic on DP by MOTU or anyone else. Ableton has sponsored dozens of Live clinics, and Apple stores do Garageband and Logic seminars all the time. People love that stuff.

PSS This is definitely the forum for long posts!

[Gravity Jim]

That is real evidence, and it sure doesn't say "dying software." I'm going back to work and will continue ignoring what teenagers say on the Internet.

JIm, with due respect, this is what frustrates me about someone serving up an alternative opinion. I, and I don't think anyone offering concern or constructive criticism, said anything about DP being a dying software. If you were to skim this post, and stumble across your response, someone would think this is what the "other side" is arguing, that and the "oh, so you want DP to be like Live so you can go make your 'beatz'" perspective.

DP is great. Continue to be great. As you grow, listen to the opinions of your customers. Weigh the opinions of your longest customers, those who have been around and using your product for years, the most. I just think it is wise, as you do this, to grow along side your product, and have the forsight to pave a promising path for its future. Reach beyond what you have already have command of, and see if there is anything you can do to inspire a demographic that isn't your strongest. In doing so, simply evaluate how others do command a certain demographic, and see what analogous improvements you can make. Some demographics don't make sense to invest in, but the youth is always a necessary investment. I just don't see how this opinion is ridiculous.

Marketing is not a matter of opinion, but a matter of strategically managing a product and a brand within the confines of the marketplace. You cant be all thing to all people, and going after a demo just because you don't command it is a waste of resources. I repeat my position that DP is obviously doing fine, better than ever, based on what we can actually know about it from the outside. Nobody said your opinion was ridiculous... I just said it didn't mean anything. For example, youth is not always a necessary investment... Mercedes does not market to 20 year olds.

[aweaselkid]

...and going after a demo just because you don't command it is a waste of resources.

Dude, come on. Isn't the theme here about building? You're not wasting resources by trying to build, and you build by reaching other demographics. I don't think any resources spent trying to reach any other demo would deter you, or any other current user, from continuing to use the product; that would be a waste of resources.

Nobody said your opinion was ridiculous... I just said it didn't mean anything.

It doesn't matter if I'm a DP user form 1993 or from 3 days ago. My opinion, as a customer, matters just as much as yours.

For example, youth is not always a necessary investment... Mercedes does not market to 20 year olds.

No, they don't, but their CLA-Class is starting at $29,900, which isn't outlandish for a kid with a good job. But since you are reaching for a product with a high price-tag to make your point, Live's suite package is $100 more then DP8 for a new user. Although DP is to Live in feature and power as Mercedes is to Mazda (or whatever you want to use as the example for a 20-something year old's car), DP (the Mercedes) is already price-pointed less!

Yea, Mercedes' commercials are tailored for people who've made it, people with maturity, class, and sophistication. You watch those and you want to work your ass off and get there yourself. But the car analogy doesn't really work. First-time DAW customers don't have the same price range to work through as car customers, nor is it true, that although you're spending $100 less, you're buying a DAW that is as elitist as a Mercedes.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

It doesn't matter if I'm a DP user form [sic] 1993 or from 3 days ago. My opinion, as a customer, matters just as much as yours.

Not really. If a customer doesn't know how to use the program and bitches that it sucks (when, in fact, they just don't know how to use it or they have an incompatibility they were unaware of) loosing that customer is not such a big deal. If a customer with 10 or 20 years of experience using the app successfully turns negative, then it is possible something else is going on and others may be experiencing the problem. Not that new customers aren't critical, but if your "opinion" is based on misinformation and/or your lack of experience and familiarity then that opinion really is kind of worthless IMO.

[Michael Canavan]

Yea, Mercedes' commercials are tailored for people who've made it, people with maturity, class, and sophistication. You watch those and you want to work your ass off and get there yourself. But the car analogy doesn't really work. First-time DAW customers don't have the same price range to work through as car customers, nor is it true, that although you're spending $100 less, you're buying a DAW that is as elitist as a Mercedes.

I don't think Live is a good comparison. A lot of people who use Live also have an 'old school DAW" for various reasons. Live is overpriced as well; mostly because they license far too much third party code for Suite. Live is a motorcycle, fast, fun, but totally incapable of moving your furniture or anything else of any size. The obvious comparisons are Cubase, Logic, Sonar and Studio One.
I do think it is as elitist as a Mercedes in many way though. Logic has lost it's elite classification by trying to be for the masses too much, same with Sonar and Studio One. Only Cubase and DP can stand up as full featured and here's the kicker, Cubase has a big brother that costs about $2,000 for "real" studio and film work, Nuendo.
So that leaves DP as the de facto Mercedes.

Now the question is how we as rabid fanboys can help sell that image.

[Gravity Jim]

Aweaselkid, you don't get it. You want to talk about your uninformed opinions, and I'm telling you repeatedly that those uninformed opinions don't mean anything in reality. I've worked in advertising and marketing for about 35 years, and I know what I'm talking about, and this is starting to remind me of one of the endless recursive arguments that toodamnhip keeps starting. So, I'm done trying to make you understand that your lunch-table guessing his nothing to do with real-world marketing, and that DP is obviously in no danger. This kind of pounding on the table "agree with me!" routine gets old quick.

[aweaselkid]

I agree, this is getting annoying.

I didn't start this post. And my opinions aren't a matter of me not knowing what I'm doing in DP-land. I represent an important demographic for DP and any other product in any other market. At no point did I (or anyone else) say anything DP related need to be dumbed down because I (or someone else) don't (doesn't) understand how to use it. We are talking about marketing, and someone else brought Live's strategies to the table, which I think are effective.

You want to talk about your uninformed opinions...

... I don't really know why you can say they are uninformed. How "informed" are yours?...

I've worked in advertising and marketing for about 35 years, and I know what I'm talking about...

... sweet, but that's the potentially-negative mentality I'm talking about, and is one that is dangerous; to sit at the top (justifiably so) with your heels dug deep, thinking just cause you got there one way, thats the only way, and a way that won't fail you as times change... But they do sometimes. Maybe not here, or now, but its a threat to anyone who stands pat. This has gotten sooo far off track from the light, non-aggressive topic of, "how can a company and a product we love redefine itself"...

So, dismiss my "lunch-table guessing", whatever dude. Hopefully MOTU isn't run by people who dismiss any opinion that is different from theres.

I'll be done, because I'm clearly the catalyst for derailing this thread. I just don't know whats so wrong with discussing something that challenges the kool-aid.

[Shooshie]

That is real evidence, and it sure doesn't say "dying software." I'm going back to work and will continue ignoring what teenagers say on the Internet.

JIm, with due respect, this is what frustrates me about someone serving up an alternative opinion. I, and I don't think anyone offering concern or constructive criticism, said anything about DP being a dying software. If you were to skim this post, and stumble across your response, someone would think this is what the "other side" is arguing, that and the "oh, so you want DP to be like Live so you can go make your 'beatz'" perspective.

DP is great. Continue to be great. As you grow, listen to the opinions of your customers. Weigh the opinions of your longest customers, those who have been around and using your product for years, the most. I just think it is wise, as you do this, to grow along side your product, and have the forsight to pave a promising path for its future. Reach beyond what you have already have command of, and see if there is anything you can do to inspire a demographic that isn't your strongest. In doing so, simply evaluate how others do command a certain demographic, and see what analogous improvements you can make. Some demographics don't make sense to invest in, but the youth is always a necessary investment. I just don't see how this opinion is ridiculous.

aweaselkid, for the record, I think your opinion is valid and worth reading. I just disagree with it. But I'm glad you're a long-time user of DP, and that you like it. There have been times when I was worried about DP and MOTU. I couldn't see how they were going to survive the price-war with Apple over Logic Studio. I couldn't see how they were going to survive the rewrite of DP into Cocoa when Steve Jobs pulled the plug on Carbon apps. But they did, and they're the stronger for it. I've been with MOTU products since their first musical release (Professional Composer), and the earliest versions of Performer, and I guess I just have a bit more perspective. I think they're doing great, for MOTU. They aren't the size of Avid, perhaps, and certainly not the size of Apple, but they've found their niche and held it well. They do their share of marketing where it counts.

If DP is an old-person's DAW, that's fine with me. I'm old for this business, but I've always thought that DP was really designed by musicians for musicians. By "musicians," I mean people who are serious about music, and who tend to know a lot about it. Certainly it's very suited for classically trained musicians; it's set up for that kind of work. But it works for songwriters, engineers, and even hobbyists if they know how to construct a piece of music.

I think where DP falls short is in making people sound more knowledgeable than they are. It's not designed for providing your guitar riffs, drums, and other "backup" sounds without help from 3rd party Virtual Instruments, loops, and plugins. Spend a little extra money on those, and it's as good as (or better than) most other DAWs at quick fleshing-out of lead-sheets. DP and Mach 5.3 make a great DAW together. But most people who use DP are willing to buy what it takes.

Sell a million copies of DP to teens and 20-year olds, and you'd have a tech-support nightmare. I don't think of DP as a beginner's tool, though everyone is a beginner sometime, and you might as well start with DP. But I darned sure don't think of it as a holdout from another era, dying a slow death with its user base. It's a tool that people come to when they're ready for it. The marketing and buzz that's out there are really quite enough to keep it positioned in sight of those people who know there must be more out there, and are looking for the time and project to try it.

It's not my intention to attack you personally in any way. I'm just not concerned about the demise of DP right now. Like Apple, it just keeps going.

Shooshie

[billf]

Some demographics don't make sense to invest in, but the youth is always a necessary investment.

Really? So your reasoning goes like this:

MOTU makes professional hardware and software, but they need to invest in youth because "youth is always a necessary investment."

We agree that MOTU makes products for the professional market, can we not? So lets alter your reasoning slightly and see where it leads:

Oracle makes professional hardware and software, but they need to invest in youth because "youth is always a necessary investment."

Sounds a bit silly doesn't it? Oh, but you might say, "well DAW software and related hardware is used in the consumer space, unlike Oracle, which is bought by professionals for business." Except for the annoying fact that professional software and hardware buyers are a demographic regardless of industry.

So perhaps, maybe, just maybe, MOTU Marketing knows exactly who their core demo are, and are doing a good job selling into it, something which you don't seem to acknowledge. And BTW, what CMO is going to come and tell random Internet Guy what their marketing strategy is?

I just don't see how this opinion is ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous, but it doesn't mean it is correct either.

[James Steele]

However, and I do not ask this sarcastically but with all sincerity, where do you think the free flow of ideas fits into all of this? If we cannot all express our concerns and thoughts HERE....freely..where can we do so? I'd hate to believe we lose freedom of opinion for fear of the internet grabbing what we say and spewing it all about. It is a fine line is it not? The day people cannot speak freely for fear of consequence is a dark day indeed. Yes, we cannot yell FIRE in a theatre, but at the same time, can we not say we are worried about DP market share amongst young people without worrying the whole internet will turn on MOTU? I think the OP post seems fairly mild compared to all the reaction that has built up AFTER his original post. Unless I have missed something, the "much ado about nothing" came AFTER the original post with the OP being fairly mild and respectful. It is that "much ado about nothing" AFTER an original RESPECTFUL post, that concerns me. I just didn't see the original post as coming off as bad as all the reaction after. I read it again, it seems honest and respectful.

I'm going to just use this section, TDH, as a jumping off point for my comments which I hope will be brief, but probably not. I view much of this topic as a waste of time.

First, the whole First Amendment "what-dark-times-are-these" dramatic overtones to this sentiment is a bit much to me. Hey... this is a private board. People have the WHOLE DAMNED INTERNET with which to say whatever the hell they want. And they do. I started this board myself. I was just a user who enjoyed DP. I didn't start this board as some civics project, or to have a place where all could come to analyze MOTU's market share to death. I'm just a guy. Just a user. This isn't MOTU. I have no responsibility to YOU or to anybody else. If I wanted to, I could just eliminate the whole off topic section tomorrow and then all the ruminating threads could go live on some other board. That's totally within my rights to do so.

I envisioned this board as a place for DIGITAL PERFORMER USERS to help each other use the software more effectively. Naturally troubleshooting comes with it and that was split into a different forum because the troubleshooting sort of took over. Takes much more energy and generosity to come to this forum to share something you've learned or a technique to get more out of DP. Most people come here to *take* something. "I have a problem. Help me fix it now. Okay, that helps. I may or may not even come back to say 'Thanks, that fixed it.'" Or they can come here to harp on an issue they have or they can come here to second guess how MOTU runs their business and we can wring our hands about the company's future. All those things have NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT I ENVISIONED AND HAD HOPED FOR THIS PLACE WHEN I STARTED THE BOARD. So with all due respect, TDH, please don't lecture me about what should or should not be talked about on this board. I've told people over and over that the phpBB.com software is available for free. Nothing stops anybody from starting a board like this themselves and running it. Have at it. Then you decide what should be there.

We have ample criticism of MOTU here. And frankly this board itself doesn't take positions. I have expressed my opinion as an INDIVIDUAL. That is my right. So have others. So TDH, if some people disagree with you on this, you'll just have to suck it up. I know few people that are as forceful and direct with their opinions on this board, TDH, as you. So if other people express an opinion the other way, that's their right. If one's personal position is to defend MOTU, how is that somehow less noble than the position of the one who criticizes? It's just OPINION. If you can't handle someone having an opinion different than yours that's your problem. As I mentioned, I and others express our opinions here IN OUR CAPACITY AS INDIVIDUALS. Same as you. Why are the opinions of those on one side of the issue less valid? Terms to invalidate those people have even been invented on the net, like "fanboy" etc.

As for obsessing over whether the new breed of "musicians", many of whom throw pre-recorded loops together to create a so-called "original" work, are the demographic that MOTU should be all hot and bothered about is up for debate, which is exactly what we've been doing here. I have said that certain features would be useful in DP. However it can't be all things to all people.

"Opinions are like noses... they all smell..." goes the cleaned-up version of an old saying. So let me express my criticism. MOTU's apparent play for the "youth" segment (as I guess we can identify it) seemed evident some years ago with a whole flood of stomp-box effects, amp modeling... etc. It felt like it was energy expended to appeal to those kids who wear the skinny jeans, have cool facial hair, and think built-in guitar stompboxes have a cool factor that trump the underlying power and functionality of a DAW. Of course some of these Gen Y kids are easily swayed by marketing and can be led around by their noses if you can only convince them that something's cool. Sadly, if MOTU really wants to influence these folks, they need to just run more ads showing particular artists using DP so the demographic that's painfully concerned about how they are perceived by others will know it's okay to use a mature tool like DP.

I'm rambling now. Sorry. My point is that all those guitar stompbox effects MOTU added to DP had absolutely no appeal to me. I'd rather the effort been spent on addressing some longstanding issues or adding something to the actual DAW functionality... that is the nuts and bolts of recording and editing MIDI and audio tracks. Yeah... I'm a dinosaur. I record an amp with a microphone. There are zillions of third party plugs out there. So MOTU must have felt compelled still to try to "stuff more in the box" to appease the BLCW contingent out there. (BLCW = "But Logic Comes With...")

Personally, rather than stick an Abercrombie & Fitch T-shirt on DP and get it to grow a cool beard and adopt the scraggly but hip look, maybe more publicity about the TOP PROFESSIONALS IN THE BUSINESS using DP both in the studio and in live shows. How many major tours are using Digital Performer in support? LOTS.

I'm okay if DP does not become the tool of choice for DJs, "re-mixers" and loop tweakers, because I do fear that trying to hammer DP into something that appeals to that segment might compromise its current strengths in pursuit of a demographic that may not be enticed to come over anyway.

But what do I know. I'm just shooting from the hip... expressing my opinion as an INDIVIDUAL like everyone else here. I'm not losing sleep over whether the hip kid at the coffee shop open mic night is using DP or Garage Band. Too busy for that right now.