Near-Field Monitors that Translate *Naturally*

[digitalme]

Hello,

I'm looking to upgrade my (currently passive) mixing environment with an active monitoring environment. I currently use JBL 4408s and alternate between a Crest Audio FA800 and Hafler TransNova amplifiers as sources of power. Active monitoring has my current attention, in part due to the fan-less amplification (although the Hafler is quite silent).

While I enjoy the output of my monitors as a 'listener', I don't feel my current mixes translate well without significant compensation. One could argue this may be in part due to room treatment, or how well I know the mixing environment, but I've spent a great deal of time with this set up and *can* compensate in the mix to translate, ...yet it is not an enjoyable process: I have to alter the output (EQ, etc.) on my current system to what I consider an unappealing sound so that it translates well on a variety of systems (cheap boom boxes, other peoples' stereos, high-end or not, car audio, etc.). This process does not seem natural. My hope is I can find different monitors or treat the room to make a more accurate translation to "usual" listening environments.

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This is where my request for your advice enters.
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I've auditioned various systems at local dealers (of course, I do not currently know how *their* room or configuration is coloring the output).

I'm willing to spend up to $4000 for a pair of active monitors or amps/passive monitors.

My usage *tends* toward the commercial pop/rock style of output (I stretch from that, but it is a reasonable appraisal of my approach. Still, it shouldn't be any different from doing orchestral work... after all; it's accuracy and translation, yes?)

I've generally ruled out the sub-$1800/pair crowd, but would re-consider given substantial board recommendation (hey, that many of you holler loud enough, and I give a product an additional listen. Not purchase necessarily, but listen. Sales folk please remain quiet!)

I'm willing to purchase a pair of monitors that sound less than pleasing if they translate well. Technically, I have that now, but I'm looking for something that requires less effort. If a majority of you replied that "x" monitors did that, I'd explore that option. I'd prefer to find something to which I like to listen first, that EQUALLY serves as great (accurately translating) mixing monitors, but, ok, sacrifices are doable. OR maybe I have an incorrect understanding of "translation" ?!?! ... And then I learn something new today, courtesy of your input.

It seems I may not be able to audition everything locally. This complicates the process, as I've discovered how important a/b/c/d-ing systems in the same environment is. I've so far taken cd's with which I believe I am verrrrry familiar and a/b'd systems. The resultant listens are definitely enlightening, and have informed directions.

However, systems not in my currently easy-to-access listening environment include the Genelec 8050a, the Adam line, and others I've encountered in the Unicornation forums.

Again, with respect to "translation," are the Genelec's that good? Is the Adam's ribbon smoothness an advantage, or are there other monitors (powered preferably, but not required) that I should (and can) be researching?

Thanks much for your input.

One thing I've admired about this board is the level of professionalism and sheer willingness to share info. I believe it is in our greater good and appreciate you all for it. I'll definitly do my part to share where I can. It's a good group.

Thanks.

[draudio2u]

I often question this same problem and make a big deal out of finding a solution I can work with. I am used to working with a B&W 802 Nautilis Surround set up with Chord Amps at my "day" job in a major studio. But I can't afford the $14000 bill for just a stereo pair for home. BUT, what this access allows for are a lot of tests

I work mostly classical and jazz but listen to a lot of pop, electronic, alternative, blue grass - typical music lover here. Sometimes I work on these other styles as well. I have worked with many sets of speaker/amp combinations and found the following to be the best - imho-

If you must stay with active speakers, listen to a set of dynaudio's. I find them far superior to Genelec. I have never been fond of the Genelec's as they always seem to have something artificial about them. You can tune them for different rooms, but then you better know your room otherwise you will still be asking "will this translate well?". The Dynaudio's are very nice and work well across many styles of music.

Otherwise, since you are looking at a healthy budget, I would consider listening to a set of B&W's. I have heard many models and sizes and never come away unhappy. Most times I am pleasently surprised that some of their smaller speakers translate so well and are so dynamic. The key I have found with them though is getting the right amp for them. We use the Chord amps in the studio and have the fans shut off. Not a problem at all since the room is climate controlled and they are designed with great heat sinks.

Also, check out ProAc's. I use their bookshelf speakers for nearfields and they are great for remote recording. When you place them on a solid stand or desk they have astonishing low end for their size. Some find them bright but for detail and clarity, things you rely on as an engineer, I find this a plus.

My personal studio has the ProAc's and I was able to puchase a set of 3 used Wilson Cub's from the studio I work at. I currenly work in stereo at home but plan on setting up a surround with the three Wilson's and two ProAc's in the rear. Haven't decided on a sub yet, but for classical music, you really don't need one. My biggest problem here though is the cash for the amps to power such a rig. Right now though I am happy with what I hear at home AND then back in the studio, and car, and friends house etc....

With $4000, you should be able to look into the used market of audiofile gear and get a great sounding system. Many high end stores do trade in's and back up the used gear they sell.

Good luck.

[wonder]

here's my 2 cents.

Mirage.
Dynaudio.
Sonus Faber.
Genelec.

in no particular order of course

[digitalme]

Thanks drAudio2u and wonder! You've given me some names to follow up on. Maybe I'm crazy, or maybe the room I heard them in, but the Dynaudios had a high end brightness that really jumped out at me on several pieces I used to audition them. Or, it could be that those pieces were indeed mixed that way and other monitors/speakers hide it. A couple of the brands you mentioned I've not heard of, so I'm excited to follow up with those.

<small>[ July 27, 2005, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: digitalme ]</small>

[MT]

If you're looking in that price range, definitely check out Adam monitors. Some of the best out there.

MT

[BradLyons]

If you're looking for true accuracy, you should really consider ADAM Audio. I have access to many lines of monitors @ Sweetwater, most of which are truly great speakers! After mixing on multiple sets in the studio to test my mixes, I chose ADAM's without second-guessing. I'm getting ready to start a sound design project so I wanted something that was dead-accurate. At the same time, I've invested a great deal of $$ into mics, pres, cables, converters, etc so I wasn't going to cut myself short on monitor quality (within reason of course).

For my needs, I picked up the ADAM P33A's. This is a 3-way that gives unbelieveable bass response due to the second woofer kicking in at 150Hz instead of the woofer having to cover low-end thump and mid-range bass. this provides a much tighter, more accurate bass response. But it's the ribbon tweeter that provides the amazing imaging and detail. Some say the ADAM's are too bright, but the reality is if they are too bright....your mixes are too bright. I swear by ADAM's, I use the S2.5A's in Studio A and have worked on the S3A's quite a bit. I would have bought the S3A's but they were too big for my room, I chose the P33A because of the 3-way as opposed to an S-series model. When I gave that check to our VP of sales to send off to ADAM, I tried to pull it back..I was shaking actually. But after getting them, I do NOT regret them one bit. They are a bargain and the most important part of my studio.

<small>[ July 27, 2005, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: Brad Lyons ]</small>

[LaptopPop]

How has your room been treated? Have you tested it to see how flat it is? If the room has problems, better monitors just plain won't help.

Even a very simple test, such as playing a slow sine wave sweep from 20 to 20K at about 80 dB and using a cheapo RS audio meter to check how levels vary can reveal amazing standing wave issues that can drastically affect your mix.

http://www.acoustisoft.com/ has software that can help you to analyze your room to amazing degrees if you get serious about it.

http://www.realtraps.com/info.htm is another good source for some basic info.

In your mixing environment, are you using different sets of speakers to test your output? Having a good set of monitors for the main mix is crucial - but it also helps to be able to switch in a cheapo "hyped" set to check a mix. Are you listening to the mixes at different volumes? That can reveal a lot as well.

If your room is treated well, Brad has a good suggestion with the Adam monitors.

-lee-

[m2]

Man I have gone through a bit of that monitor-quest as well. Currently I have the Meyer HD1s with a set of NS-10 next to them to check low end for smaller playback enviroments.
Even though my Meyers are a fairly pricey 6k plus a pair new, I still have moments where i find they do not always translate 100%.
Right now I have my sights on the ADAM 2.5A - I think they are right in your price range 3700.00 +/- street. I cut some tracks at a studio with a pair a few weeks back and really thought they where acurate. It was a rock thing a'la 'Killers'. We A/Bed the tracks on NS-10s as well as we tracked and they were really nice. FYI - I will be selling my Meyers soon if I make the switch. Love the Meyers but they are a bit 'Big' for some of the audio post for picture that we do. Much better for a music only senario.

[digitalme]

Wow, only one additional day and yet many more great replies. Thanks everybody!

I'm currently running this as a personal studio, so my room has not been treated, however, I have noticed the same (seemingly consistent) issues in previous rooms where I've been set up.

LaptopPop: I'll likely explore your suggestions more seriously. I _do_ mix at different levels (a tip I think I originally learned on Unicornation a while back!), and I do switch from my existing monitors to a set of Klipsch 2.1 computer monitors to get a different perspective, so those angles are covered (well, maybe not *covered* but at least a change to alter perspective). What I haven't yet done is explore treatment, other than the basics... allegedly, proper monitor placement, isolation of monitor from stand, etc.

[daniel.sneed]

Hi listening fellows !

My 2 cents :
I use a pair of STUDER A1.
Much more acurate and neutral to my ears than Genelec or Dynaudio.

I use them with a Yamaha SW10 sub.

A lower-priced kit than other options, I believe.

Worth a try.

Music on you !

dAn

[sam_shade]

Blue Sky System One. Need I say more? Our mastering engineer is always impressed with our mixes(and he's particular) Very well integrated sub.

Rick Hollett
Record Time Productions

[lightningad]

seriously consider the PMC range. We demoed them against other similar priced monitors and were blown away by the clarity and depth these monitors put out. We liked them so much we got two pairs of the smallest ones they do (DB1SA) with Flying Mole Digital amps strapped to the back. These are the nearest amp they could find to a Bryston without the size, weight and cost (they should know - they are part of Bryston!). I think the website is www.pmc-speakers.com

[cases05]

You should really consider the Mission Pro SM6A monitors.

In my opinion one big bang for a buck.

I've tried a lot of Near Fields from Adam P22, Genelec, Quested up to Dynaudio Air Series.
I must admit i liked the Mission Pro's best.

[lsdd]

My Tannoy Reveals have done me proud for years! My clients keep commenting on how my mixes sound faithful/the same on their systems at home. i know it's strange! i would love to afford Adams!! They blew me away at "sounds Expo" ,but I can't....And neither can my clients. But!

I'd go for Adams .....if I could!!
xd

[lsdd]

P.S. My room has been "treated"!!! Very important!!

xxd