Favorite Compressor Plug In for Orchestral Music

[SMP2005]

I currently use the Masterworks Compressor on my primary stems when producing orchestral (sample based) music. Just the other day, I heard that some of my bigger cues almost had a "telephonic quality" to the EQ when I applied "low end boost" to a particular huge, brass stem.

What is anyones favorite plug in compressor that may be decent for this style music? I am considering the Universal Audio Studio Pak....

Thanks !

Shawn

[draudio2u]

Compressor on Classical Music

If it is pure, there is no dynamics applied to classical music - ever.

What style are you going for?

[BradLyons]

I am a serious fan of compression, but I don't recommend it on classical music...maybe slight limiting, but no compression IMHO as you want the natural sound and dynamics. If you must use compression, this is IMHO the time when hardware boxes like GML are the only choice. But even then, why?

[SMP2005]

>>Compressor on Classical Music

If it is pure, there is no dynamics applied to classical music - ever. What style are you going for? >>

I never said it was "classical" - nor pure, for that matter...
It is orchestral and produced using sample libraries. To achieve a large, full orchestral sound, even if it is slight, some degree of compression needs to be added - especially to the low end portion of the sonic spectrum.

Check out some of my pieces in the music section of my website

http://www.shawnpatterson.com/music.php

Take a listen to "Highlands Invasion" or "The Outer Edge" for a more musical example - and less description on my part...

So.... any specific suggestions ? I welcome any thoughts.

Thanks.

S

[westla]

Not sure I follow, are you talking about compression or EQ??

In you first post you talk about "telephonic quality" on the low end, this is an EQ problem not Comp.

As for me, and all the other composers I know, when we do orchestral film/tv music, if your using good quality samples, there is very rarely a need for compression.

[chrispick]

Originally posted by SMP2005:
>>Compressor on Classical Music

If it is pure, there is no dynamics applied to classical music - ever. What style are you going for? >>

I never said it was "classical" - nor pure, for that matter...
It is orchestral and produced using sample libraries. To achieve a large, full orchestral sound, even if it is slight, some degree of compression needs to be added - especially to the low end portion of the sonic spectrum.

Check out some of my pieces in the music section of my website

http://www.shawnpatterson.com/music.php

Take a listen to "Highlands Invasion" or "The Outer Edge" for a more musical example - and less description on my part...

So.... any specific suggestions ? I welcome any thoughts.

Thanks.

S

There's some nice, fun stuff on your site.

Are you mixing material yourself? Seemed to me, at least at a cursory read, that most of your orchestral tunes are produced for TV and film. That, plus a few photos, leads me to think you're hauling material into a post-prod mixing room for mixdown. Or no? If so, your engineer should tackle this matter for you.

If not, then a suggestion: Try plugging PSP VintageWarmer in your master out, only adjust its setting so that it only adds the subtlest touch of extra low-end harmonic frequency. This will help you approximate some of the richness of analog tape, which may help. Also, iZotope Ozone has a multiband exciter which, if used in a similarly very-subtle way, may also help.

To note: Audio for broadcast ends up being compressed a few times going to air anyway (when laid to digital tape and when transmitted). Don't know if that helps you, but it should figure into your equation (if it doesn't already).

[SMP2005]

Thanks for the input, all. Maybe I can try to clarify -

I typically use the Masterworks Compressor (sometimes the preset "Low End Punch" on brass tracks. ) This seems to squash the stuff a little (or a lot...) and add a bit of bass to the bottom.

I seldom use EQ - typically only on timp/percussion tracks. I sometimes will add a low end filter to remove undesired low end rumble.

However, on this particular cue I did - I added NO EQ and still was hearing the trumpets and general brass sounding a bit "telephonic". ( this particular cue had some fff trumpets playing a fanfare style). I had added the Masterworks compression to the stem ( as I commonly do) and then removed it, suspecting IT was the cause of the offending sonic quality I was hearing. It seemed to even be somwhat present after I removed it and remixed the stem.

Could or does the audio section of DP add any kind of limiting or compression to avoid digital clipping ??? I doubt it, though...

Yes, sadly, I mix all of my own stuff and while I have grown to tolerate mixing - I really don't like it and prefer to just compose. Yes, most of the stuff I do gets submitted to post houses for mix down - however, they would not be interested in EQ'ing out some bizarre artifact as I have described.

Shawn

[m2]

Sample based orch scores can be a drag to do because it just never really measures up to the real deal. That said when I do those pieces - and I have done many - I always master the 2 mix, or stems thru a Manley Variable MU stereo compressor/ Limiter. It really helps breath life into samples and will nicely tame aggressive brass samples. Try one out if you can I think you will be happy with the results.

good luck

[sdemott]

For a plugin comp - I like the WaveArts TrackPlug. For HW on something like this - an original JoeMeek SC2 on slope 1 or 2 set so it just kisses the threshold and the needle just barely dances.

Another option would be to use a nice warm preamp and and just send the signal out to that and back in - set it so you aren't so much adding gain...just a cohesive color, something that glues it together and adds that low end punch.

[dpdan]

I do alot of sample orchestra recordings and never use any compression ever. If something is out of control I fix it in the MIDI track first, then during mixing I apply TLC (tender loving care) in case some think that's some new magical mastering plugin. Don't get me wrong I love compression for what it can do on certain things,.... but I never use any compression for anything orchestral in nature.

just my .02
dpDan

[bassie12]

I would agree about never using a compressor on something orchestral in a situation where an actual orchestra is being recorded.

With samples, all bets are off. Use whatever it takes to make it sound right. Personally, I view using samples to represent "acoustic" music as something of a desperate measure, and feel that there is nothing sacred about them. So process at will!!

You're "telephonic" problem is most likely an eq issue. Well more of a frequency build up/masking situation, really. I find that certain, ugly upper mid frequencies tend to become exaggerated when combining many samples. This combined with compression is a sure road to "phonesville". It takes a lot of work to get sampled orchestral stuff to feel like the real deal, from composition to arrangement to making up for the fact that instead of the professional experience of thirty or more excellent musicians, its down to you and your engineer(most likely you, too).

All that said, I agree with dpdan about going back to the MIDI source and dealing with velocities and the attendant timbral changes/problems each individual sample presents when combined with all those other samples. Then, instead of compression, spend time riding the volume of your stems: this is where you get to translate your conducting skills to the mouse....

Happy hunting!


Man, am I glad I get to occasionally record orchestras with a handful of mics. Air is my favorite summing bus.

[dpdan]

bassie12,
what a wonderful post. I could not agree more. I love your choice of words in describing the ideal way to convey the real thing when it's not. I know what you mean about using real mics with real musicians, and "AIR" what a wonderful treat huh?

dpDan

[bassie12]

Thanks Dpdan! I'm always reticent to reply to these on-line boards unless I actually have something useful to say. Even when I do, I'm afraid I come off as a bit of an opinionated jerk. That's not to say I'm NOT an opinionated jerk....I just don't really intend to subject others to my strongly held opinions.

Yes, real musicians, a few mics, and air are where its at for me. Now, if only a death ray could be devised to vaporize every piezo pickup in every acoustic guitar, fiddle, ukelele and upright bass on the planet....

[dpdan]

Wow we sure do think alot alike : )
Have a great week!

dpDan

[andrew feazelle]

Hi guys,

I write a lot of symphonic stuff using Vienna Symphonic Lib and DigiPerformer 3. I am neurotic about composing as if I were orchestrating for a real orchestra even when it makes it tougher to mix and produce the final recording.

I just got done writing and recording some fake symphonic music for a company that promotes books with 3-5 minute videos for the enjoyment of air passangers, cruise takers, and book consumers who are internet savey and so on.

I don't have any outboard gear as I live in a fantacy world where my project studio's only purpose is for producing demos of music that will make its way to the scoring stage. I don't really consider my home recordings final product.

I've written lots of concert music for large orchestra, however, I'm new in the town of Los Angeles and the probablility of having a company throw a huge orchestral music budget at me is very low for now.

I'm ok at mixing stuff and have become pretty good at adding different everb settings to diff instrument groups to make the recording sound like a concert hall (ie strings in front of wws and brass, percs in the back). But the end product always sounds alot flatter (doesn't sparkle) when I play back an aiff or wav using itunes or Avid or musicbatch juke box or pick you favorite media player versus what the stuff sounds like in Digiperformer when its coming out of my studio monitors. What can I do (given a strict budget) to make my tunes sound better?

My theory is to get a better verb unit and that will fix alot (say a PCM-90 or altiverb plug). But I'm sure the flattness will still be there. I've tried running stuff through DPs preamp a few years ago and was getting recordings that either didn't sound any different or got too hot where I coudn't find a happy medium.

Any help appreciated

A Fez