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mikehalloran wrote:

Sibelius is also an option but I personally detest the program

Amen to that.

Why? What do you guys detest about Sibelius? I'm in the market for a real notation program myself, first one ever. I see Sibelius and Finale as being the two real contenders.. when I see them compared, it's always with the disclaimer that Finale is hard to learn, has strange issues, is not intuitive, etc., but it's still WAY better than Sibelius.

Why?

It's all about GUI and interface "procedures" as well as depth of the programs.

I find S/ incredibly difficult to near impossible to enter notes. They even have a "Finale" mode now since so many people complained. On top of that, I'm not a big fan of one company owing so many app. Sibelius is owned by Avid who also owns Pro Tools and M-Audio, and who knows what else? Make Music has only notation apps (Smart Music and Finale) and a partnership with Garritan, but they are dedicated notation experts and have been around much longer.

There have also been lots of firings at Sibelius in recent years and rumors of it's demise. Finale has been around for ages and they're very good about customer support and tech questions.

Ultimately it's about the scores produced and Finale let's you out anything on the page you want - as long as you're willing to take the time to do so.

Go here:

http://www.finalemusic.com/support/lear ... o-library/

Go to the second set of videos and check out the Finale v. Sibelius and maybe the other videos.

Not to start a war, and with all due respect to MLC (I think he's more than earned respect!), but I want to stick up for Sibelius. I've been using it since I left finale in 2000 or so and have loved it. I know a LOT of very prominent classical composers (or their copyists) who use it. Boosey & Hawkes uses it (as do other top publishers). I totally get that some people don't like it, but there are many that don't like finale as well. It really is a choice and the "rut" we've chosen and are used to. Both are excellent pieces of software. As for the layoffs with Avid, that is possibly serious just because they are a semi-messed up company and have messed with a great uk software team. I would think it will be ok. Let's see. Making Music was having financial issues as well recently. But, again, it really is a terrific program.

GOOD DAY, SIR! I SAY, GOO DAY!

Just kidding.... the librarian I worked with at the Chicago Symphony would only use Sibelius. Clearly both are competently written programs. But the mindset for S. just is not in line with my needs. I don't think like the S. programmers or something. I don't know. I had a really hard time and I spent about a year with it. FInale I learned in about 3 days - at least enough to write a full orchestral score. The third party plug ins are also quite good for F. and it will be 64 bit (presumably with all new Cocoa code) later this year.

And let's please not start a war, I agree, but I SUSPECT they are working on some very interesting new features as well. Frankly, competition is a good thing. Keeps everyone on their toes. I would love to see more competition, or maybe MOTU could buy Finale and replace QS?

Finale was recently purchased by another company, BTW, for like $9M? Small potatoes in the big picture, but not exactly peanuts. SOmewhere between broccoli and carrots, I think.

Why?

Really, the best way to find out is to download the demos, watch the tutorials, try it for yourself and go.

Those who love Sibelius do and those who don't will never touch it again. My daughter, the composition major, used it in college until it wouldn't do what she needed. She switched to Finale and never looked back. Me, I was turned off by the demo.

At the moment, it is a lot less expensive to get into Finale because of the $99 upgrade from anything including a few inexpensive and free programs. When 2014 ships later this year, the expected upgrade from 2012 will probably be $99 if history means anything.

Sibelius is in a state of flux. Avid has sold it and laid off the programmers and bla, bla, bla... you can read about it a hundred places. Upshot: Steinberg Sound i. e. Yamaha owns it now and no one really knows what is happening except that the new programmers are supposed to be in Siberia.

The so-called "industry standard" Scorch plug-in that allows Sibelius scores to be viewed and downloaded (and sold!) onto any platform doesn't work unless your Mac has a PPC. I found this out when I had to download sheet music for a client from Hal Leonard (largest publisher in the world). Who knew they were using Scorch for certain scores? Fortunately, I still have a G4 in my studio for just such nonsense. That Avid never updated Scorch was one of the many, many (many!) signs of neglect.

Anyway, will Yamaha/Steinberg/Russian mystery programmers rescue Sibelius? I don't care but, if you make the investment, you will need to.

Wow, thanks guys!

Recent events have caused me to take a deep look at these companies as companies. I'm grateful to hear from you about the state of these two competitors in the marketplace, what's sold, who owns it, etc.

Finale sounds more stable as an enterprise, than whatever will happen with Sibelius (if they're Yamaha now, I may be out anyway). I guess I will need to demo them together and see if there is a fit.

One important aspect for me, besides all the composing stuff like note entry and scanning, is compatibility with the DAW. Which one can import MIDI tracks from DP the best, to get dressed up and ready for print the easiest? Which has the most inspiring and versatile onboard sounds? Which is best for the composer that thinks he can figure out how to work with notation programs, but is in for a big F$%&n surprise? I want to (mostly) use a MIDI keyboard to input notes, which one does that best? Blah, Blah..

So I will have to acid test them both.

I started with Finale but switched to Sibelius in 2007 when I started various music courses (Sibelius is more widely used in the UK education market). I was fairly happy with it until recent events with Avid made me take another look at Finale. A month with the demo decided me to move back. Both are great programs, but I've always felt that you could do absolutely everything with Finale if needed, whereas Sibelius has some odd omissions. MakeMusic support is vastly superior to Avid's now that the old team have been sacked, and I like the link with Garritan.

BTW Yamaha didn't buy Sibelius, it's still in Avid's hands. Avid sacked all of the London based development staff (all of whom were musicians as well as programmers), and outsourced the work to a few programmers in the Ukraine. The sacked Sibelius team was then employed by Steinberg (owned by Yamaha) to develop a completely new notation program and at some point revamp the Cubase score editor (powerful but confusing). Interestingly, taken by surprise by the backlash at the sackings, Avid tried to get the development team back but none were interested.

Testing them both is a good idea though. One thing to note is that you don't get the full Sibelius 7 sound library with the demo, but I found this one of the most disappointing aspects of the Sib 7 upgrade. It doesn't sound anywhere near as good as its size suggests.

Thanks for the perspective CB.

Yeah, thanks for that!

I complain a lot about Finale, but the fact is I use it on a regular basis. I'm not writing huge scores so the depth to which I use the program is limited, but I've had the opportunity to work with both Finale and Sibelius and when I have a choice, I pick Finale. The bottom line is that I can work faster in Finale (much faster) and I like the way the generated MIDI files work seamlessly with DP. I've even on occasion used IAC to run Finale and DP together, which I couldn't get working in Sibelius.

JMHO.
Phil

BTW Yamaha didn't buy Sibelius, it's still in Avid's hands. Avid sacked all of the London based development staff (all of whom were musicians as well as programmers), and outsourced the work to a few programmers in the Ukraine. The sacked Sibelius team was then employed by Steinberg (owned by Yamaha) to develop a completely new notation program

But... but... but...

I read it on the internet!

Thanks for the correction.

I mentioned this in a few other topics, but I initially had a bias STRONGLY in favour of Sibelius as they are dominant in the SF Bay Area partly due to Michael Tilson Thomas' endorsement, and, on an emotional level, because Sibelius is one of my three favourite composers.

When I first tried them all about five or six years ago (maybe even longer ago), I was about to pull my hair out just trying to find an efficient way to enter basic notation, and ended up buying the then-new Notion program instead. But Notion has shifted focus more towards pre-college educators' needs (glad they're doing that as they are filling a need and helping to motivate young budding musicians/composers, so am not complaining; it just means it has moved away from MY needs), and the rebirth of Encore wasn't what we hoped (not enough professional features).

So, last year I tried them all again, over one or two weekends on serious projects, along with a couple of others (Overture?). Sibelius crashed constantly and this did not contribute to my good feelings towards it, but once I got it going and went through the tutorials and manuals, I simply found it less flexible and direct for the way I work, which is primarily linearly and from a very complete initial concept.

Finale has improved a lot over the years, and the latest version is more efficient. Although they've had financial troubles and were sold last year, they show signs of serious development and moving forward, along with good customer support and following technological changes.

My observation, however, is that Sibelius overall seems dominant in Europe and Finale in the US. Probably mostly because Sibelius WAS an English company (no longer true; it's now "developed" in Prague from what I heard, or maybe Budapest or even Sofia Bulgaria).

As everyone has different ways of working, I will not be one to criticize someone who is able to get work done well, quickly, and professionally with Sibelius. I've simply found over the past four years that the trend has seemed to be more back towards Finale. And Finale format is literally the ONLY format anyone ever delivers to me or asks from me, in spite of MTT's influence in the Bay Area. It also seems to dominate music schools around the US.

mikehalloran wrote:But... but... but...

I read it on the internet!

Thanks for the correction.

Sorry Mike, I didn't mean to come across as all correctional

I have heard before that the Internet can't always be relied on

rebirth of Encore wasn't what we hoped (not enough professional features).

Well, it almost does everything promised in the original Passport Designs user manual - finally! I have five licenses I think. My wife won't / can't use anything else. I used it for knocking out quick praise band and choral arrangements for my church gigs, something I don't do anymore. It's now Finale only in my studio.

Encore for the Mac does one thing very well. It's small and fits on a thumb drive. To install, all you have to do is drag it onto a desktop or into an applications folder, double-click, enter your serial number and you are done - just like that. When I am working in another studio and I need to, say, knock out a quick chart for a bass player who just can't follow the leader, Encore is almost as fast as the old days when I could knock it out on paper (I no longer have the use of my writing arm). I can install, write and print out the chart while they're arguing over why one can't follow the other. To uninstall, drag the app and preferences to the trash - the fonts are contained in the app with v.5.

If Encore were priced oh, $149 or even better, $99, I'd recommend it to those with minimal needs. But its features are extremely limited and at $399 it is a joke. Four layout sizes and you can't scale them - not even on a Mac? Really - still?

I shudder ever trying to teach my wife anything more complicated. Oh no, no, no, no, no.... I'll keep one license upgraded just for her.

I occasionally pop up on the GVOX user forum to answer questions but there are so few users on there anymore. Its a ghost town.

Here's some useful Encore links from a third-party resource:

http://www.theoreticallycorrect.com/index.html

http://www.theoreticallycorrect.com/Encore-5-review/

And here's a musical slide ruler from the same source:

http://www.theoreticallycorrect.com/Mus ... index.html

I see that the site also references my friend's J.S. Bach MIDI scores and that they are included in Encore 5 (which he was working on before coming to my company, but it's still unknown how much of that code made it into the rebirth of the product after their multi-year lull).

Note that Encore is only $129 using a cross-grade offer from Sibelius, Finale, and maybe others.