Was: Scoring my first feature length film. Now: It's up!

[wheever]

Hi, my fellow 'cornites. So, I have this gig scoring a feature-length film for Amazon Studios, and I wanted to pick the brains of the august membership of this board. I know a bunch of you are pros at this work, and I have a few basic questions about working in DP to picture.

Do you guys tend to work all in one sequence? By which I mean, all the VIs and whatnot are in one sequence and you write the cues, bringing them in and out as necessary? I did the rough for this movie in little bites, pretty much scene by scene, in separate sequences, and when the rough was assembled, I just bounced each sequence to audio and assembled it in a main "build" sequence where I can ignore the tempo and meter and just go by SMPTE. Does this seem like a reasonable approach? I've run across a couple of downsides to this--mostly mix consistency and the clunkiness of making changes to the scenes. Can you guys think of any further downsides that might come back to bite me in the ass later on?

Do any of you work in Song windows? If so, how do you manage the processor requirements? The way I'm working is a little bit like the song window, and I'm just wondering.

For the most part, this soundtrack is generative ambience, so there's not a lot of having to write musical cues that line up with action for long periods. And so far this system is working pretty well. I was just wondering if I was missing something huge that I was going to trip over later on.

Any tips you guys can give me will be much appreciated!

Thanks!

[buzzsmith]

I don't have an answer, but Congratulations, anyway!~

Buzzy

[Kubi]

In most films I use one project per reel, since more often than not the time code will restart at the full hour for every reel, and for me this turned out to be the happy medium between having everything in one project and not having the project become too bloated. Within each project/reel I'll have a new sequence for each cue within the project, but they all start at the top of the reel (so most cues will have a lot of empty bars at the beginning.) This makes shifts etc. very easy. I never have more than one cue in a sequence, since you couldn't use commands like "snip" without potentially inviting disaster.

If I start a new cue that is based on some existing musical material, I'll usually import a sequence of another cue with the same musical material as a starting point. This way all the instruments, levels etc. are already set up. In fact, when conceptualizing the score I'll do a very thorough job on the various 'prototypes' of the different cues, in close collaboration with the filmmaker - usually I do this by composing key scenes in the movie that help me set up 'prototypes' of the different types of cues I anticipate needing. The more different elements the filmmakers end up loving in these early stages, the more I can make those part of each cue-family's "template", from instruments all the way down to mixing decisions etc.

I'll often use V-Racks for the VIs etc., especially for those core elements that stay the same throughout all cues, or throughout a family of related cues. This way switching from one cue to the next is instantaneous. I just bought VE Pro 5 though, so I may just host everything outside of DP from now on, we'll see.

I always print everything immediately, as if the VIs were live instruments. With intelligent bussing doing this requires hardly any extra time, for me the printing process usually goes hand-in-hand with a final playback to check the finished cue. After printing the VIs I put the printed MIDI tracks (and if they are part of the sequence, the printed VIs) in a folder labeled "Print OK" - this way it's easy to resurrect for changes etc. Whatever you have printed as audio is pretty much safe (provided you also have a good backup regimen), whereas VIs can go kablooey for a myriad of reasons. So I highly recommend that.

Hope this helps. Congrats on the gig, and have fun!

[dix]

Do you guys tend to work all in one sequence? By which I mean, all the VIs and whatnot are in one sequence and you write the cues, bringing them in and out as necessary? I did the rough for this movie in little bites, pretty much scene by scene, in separate sequences, and when the rough was assembled, I just bounced each sequence to audio and assembled it in a main "build" sequence where I can ignore the tempo and meter and just go by SMPTE. Does this seem like a reasonable approach? I've run across a couple of downsides to this--mostly mix consistency and the clunkiness of making changes to the scenes. Can you guys think of any further downsides that might come back to bite me in the ass later on?

Do any of you work in Song windows? If so, how do you manage the processor requirements? The way I'm working is a little bit like the song window, and I'm just wondering.

Congrats!

I've used various strategies over the years. Including using Chunks and Songs, as well as in-line composing (just composing to one big sequence), but I pretty much now always do exactly what you describe - keeping a separate dp file for each cue and then compiling a master file that contains the mixed audio for all the cues in the project. Some people like to keep all the cues in Chunks within one file. This makes the V-Rack relevant in that you can keep effects and VIs consistent from cue to cue, but I've always found that method cumbersome and prefer to keep cues in separate sequences (within the same Project Folder). Creative use of Clippings helps me maintain the consistency and continuity for the VIs and effects.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Each cue I do is a chunk. Each reel is a project. The final mix (if I'm the one to do it) is a separate project with only a few audio tracks.

DP is usually the least of my worries. Newbie directors and producers crash my brain. The less you get paid, the more they ask for and "oversee" you. Working for free is sheer hell. NEVER do it! EVER!!

[wheever]

Thanks, you guys, for the props and congratulations!

It's not that big a deal, it's only a test movie. And a silly one at that. More like a moving story board. But it's funded, and I'm actually getting paid, so I've got that going for me. It sure as hell isn't Art!

Kubi: Thank you for the detailed run down on how you work. It's pretty much how I'm doing it, except that all the Chunks are in the same project, which makes grabbing the bits I need from one chunk and dragging it to another really easy. It's funny, you and MLC talking about reels--means you're old school! This is the first time I've worked on a film this long, though I'm an old dog. Never thought in "reels" before. HA!

MLC: I'm basically doing what you're doing, only I'm building in a chunk in the same project. I'm glad to know I'm on the right track with my methodology. And I know what you mean about working for free and newbie directors, I've dealt with that crap before. This director and I get along really well, and he freely admits that he knows nothing about music, and lets me do my thing. He's specified a bunch of hits and ideas that, so far, I have completely agreed with.

The biggest problem I think I'm going to have is that I'm going to have to take the post away from the guy who is supposed to be doing it. What do I know about post? Sweet FA, but the rough mixes this guy laid were a nightmare, and the dialog, foley and SFX sounded like broken glass. The guy has never met a fader he has felt like moving, I swear, or a hi shelf he hasn't wanted to bump up +8. Yikes! It will be interesting, to say the least, to see how it all comes out.

Thanks for all your help, guys! I really appreciate it. I just wanted to be sure that I wasn't going about it totally ass-backwards--and it appears I'm not. Which is a surprise.

I'll let you know when Amazon has it posted. I've got a couple of weeks to work on it, so it won't be up for a bit.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

You can do it all in one chunk. I just like to work in separate chunks to keep the cues separate in case they change. Then I create a master project. And yes, by all means, if you can do the mix, DO THE MIX! Good sound editors are a rare find, IMO. Mediocre ones are a dime a dozen.

"Reels" ain't old school the way you think. Features are delivered in 20 minute segments as a general rule. This allows the editors to work in an environment that doesn't overload their systems. They then compile the "reels" into the whole film.

They're called reels from the old days, indeed. Way before my time, but as I score a lot of restored silent films I understand that terminology fairly well. In the very old days (around 1909 I think) the "trusts" (look 'em up - this ain't a history class! ) decided that ALL film reels need to be 1000 feet. Since 1000 feet of 35mm film running at about 16fps (or thereabout) came out to 10 minutes. "Two reelers" would then be 20 minutes long or there about. I know, sounds crazy, but that's what happened. A "feature" might be 6 or 8 reels or more. The theaters would routinely cut out sections they didn't like!

Watch feature films made today (many, not all) and every 20 minutes you'll see a little circle in the upper right hand corner (even in some digital films that have no reel changes). The first little mark warns the projectionist that a reel change is coming up in something like 9 seconds. At the last mark, the projectionist would pull a switch, change over to the other projector, and it would also cue a little window to block the light of the 1st machine and open a window letting the light of the 2nd machine on to the screen.

<gasp>

I may have a few numbers here and there off a bit and frame rates in hand cranked cameras required projectionists (at least the good ones) to match the frame rate it was shot at by watching the action and making it look "natural." I work from time to time with a guy who still does hand-cranked projection. It a pretty amazing little piece of film history and the roots of what we now know as cinema. I still haven't seen Hugo which is about a great pioneer, Georgé Méliès.

I could go on a while but will stop there....

[zuul-studios]

(Coming out of "lurk-reading mode". . . . )

Gosh, this place is a treasure fine!

And. . . . Wheever. . . Congrats on the gig! Honestly, it's exciting for me (a happy "non-pro") to read about someone's first gig like you. . . scoring your first feature film. I hope to say, "I knew this person back when he or she. . . . . "

If/when you have the time & energy, I wouldn't mind hearing your project as you work through it. It would be neat to hear its progress.

Again, congratulations!

Ted

(Back into "Lurk-reading mode". . . )

[wheever]

Thanks, Zuul! But it's not a "feature film" it's a feature length film. It's a funded test movie for Amazon Studios. Really, it's like a moving storyboard...or a not very animated cartoon. It's silly, but it's a gig.

MLC, thanks for the lesson on reels and terminology. Actually very interesting and helpful. Also, as it turns out, they want the scoring finished a week early, and I'm doing the post whether I like it or not. Which, given how little I'm getting paid follows your rule about the less you're paid the more they ask of you. Damned thing needs to be on the FTP site Friday morning. I think I've bitten off more than I can chew! I've pulled 10-hours days for the last week, and I'm dog tired. I still have 20 minutes to score. I think I can do it.

So, for the final mix: does anyone know what my target level should be for the dialog? I don't have a calibrated system, and I have no way of measuring the SPL. (This thing is going straight to Amazon streaming, so I'm assuming I should be shooting for TV audio levels.) Anyone? Anyone?

In lieu of an expert answer, I'm going to shoot for 0vu in DP, with the occasional foray hotter. Let the house that's doing the final set the overall level and hope that's not too hot. The dialog tracks are gosh darn hot!

Yikes.

[cowtothesky]

Congrats man!

I find this thread interesting reading what others are doing for scoring films. I have very rough templates, so I usually build everything from scratch for each film. This way I can concentrate on finding and creating the right sounds that fit the film. Once I get a general template, I'll create a folder for the film and create a project for each cue that I am working on. I'll load up another cue, build more vi's and go with the next cue. I'll have multiple folders within the film folder for each section. Once I mix down the sections independently, I'll create a master mix with the mixed down audio tracks, line it all up, master each track, and mix it down to one continuous score to be sent to the director. I'm sure this is inefficient, but It works for me!

Good luck with the feature. Hope it opens up lots of doors for you.
Cheers.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

... or one can just throw music at the screen and see what sticks.

[wheever]

... or one can just throw music at the screen and see what sticks.

HA HA HA HA HA, MLC! I got my Music Comp degree from Bennington College, That's precisely what I did! It's the Bennington way!

But seriously, I have one more mix pass to make, then the director is coming over for a listen tomorrow, then this bitch is going off to Amazon, whether it's done or not.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

... or one can just throw music at the screen and see what sticks.

HA HA HA HA HA, MLC! I got my Music Comp degree from Bennington College, That's precisely what I did! It's the Bennington way!

But seriously, I have one more mix pass to make, then the director is coming over for a listen tomorrow, then this bitch is going off to Amazon, whether it's done or not.

Usually it's one more pass to make at the director or it's off to iTunes with the bitch. ☺ Do a damn needle drop. If you want Elfman, use Elfman!

[cowtothesky]

... or one can just throw music at the screen and see what sticks.

HA HA HA HA HA, MLC! I got my Music Comp degree from Bennington College, That's precisely what I did! It's the Bennington way!

But seriously, I have one more mix pass to make, then the director is coming over for a listen tomorrow, then this bitch is going off to Amazon, whether it's done or not.

A score is never finished. It is simply left alone.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

“Art is never finished, only abandoned.”

~ Leonardo da Vinci