MOTU plugs vs. Waves, etc.

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Dark Goob
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MOTU plugs vs. Waves, etc.

Post by Dark Goob »

I'm doing some basic mixing. Just need to use expander, limiter, compressor, and EQ features. In DP7 I really like the channel strip displays for the Masterworks EQ, Limiter, and Compressor, and for MOTU Dynamics. It just makes it easy to use.

But if I were to use, say, Waves SSL or API plug-ins, could I achieve better sound quality theoretically? Should I mix both?

My files are all 44.1khz and 24-bit.

I figured that if I ever get a song that I have mixed that really deserves the best possible mix, then I'll pay to have a real pro master it on some Manley EQs and a Neve board, or whatever. For now, I just want the best, most straight-forward way to get as close as possible 'in the box.'

Thanks
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allemande
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Re: MOTU plugs vs. Waves, etc.

Post by allemande »

In response to your question: I think that each plugin has its proper use, and sometimes even a "great" plugin isn't the right choice. Overall, the MOTU EQ, leveler, limiter,ProVerb and three band compressor are very usable tools. The leveler especially is quite musical. The highest quality plugins in my tool box are Brainworx XL and V2- advanced M/S Mastering tools. Very good stuff. I hate the Waves WUP plan and am not using their plugins anymore for that reason. Apparently the UA plugins are also quite good.
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Prime Mover
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Re: MOTU plugs vs. Waves, etc.

Post by Prime Mover »

The masterworks plugins are quite extraordinary for bundled plugins. I would say all of them do a great job serving their purpose, with possibly the exception of the MW Compressor, which I feel is lacking in some necessary features and parameters. I've never been able to get the MW Compressor to do what I wanted it to. I just bought the Waves C6, their high-end dynamic EQ, and it blows away the MW Compressor. On the other hand, the MW Limiter, while not having all the fine-tune adjustments of the Ultramaximizers, is a very competent brick wall limiter with lookahead. Proverb is a great reverb... it might not be Altiverb, but you can get a lot of great sound out of it. The Leveler is a very competent LA-2A representation that can stack up with the best of them.

I've just always felt that MOTUs been a little lacking in the compressor category. They have no single band compressor in the MW level of products, so while the dynamics plugin is adequate, it really doesn't have the flexibility it should. And the MW Compressor completely lacks knee adjustment and a broad attack time range, and it's just not enough bands to be transparent enough for mastering, IMO, so I'm at a loss as to where the MW Compressor comes in handy.

But, the standard Dynamics plugin serves its purpose well for being a universal dynamics plug.
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Shooshie
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Re: MOTU plugs vs. Waves, etc.

Post by Shooshie »

Can you get more with Waves plugins? Depends on which ones. You could write a book on that subject, but the answer is yes. You can get better sound with the Waves plugins, depending on which ones you use and how you use them. There is just more potential for sound modification with some of Waves more amazing plugins. But that's not a fair comparison. Waves makes plugins. MOTU makes DAWs. MOTU's plugins are first rate for the most part, but they just don't have some of the kinds of plugins you can get from Waves. Nor are they trying to compete with Waves. They offer a very good bundle, and that gives DP great value for people who buy it and do not wish to expand into 3rd party plugins. But if you DO expand into other plugins, then yes, you will have more options for better quality mixes. Your skill and plugin selection will determine your mileage.

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Re: MOTU plugs vs. Waves, etc.

Post by KarlSutton »

just thought I'd throw a little "plug" out there for wavearts.com
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bayswater
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Re: MOTU plugs vs. Waves, etc.

Post by bayswater »

I don't think there is an remotely objective answer to the question.

Expanding on what Shooshie said about some of the "more amazing" plugins, I've always liked Waves Ren plugins. I can't argue they are higher quality, or "amazing" or better in any way than the plugins that are bundled with DP. Others tell me they're cheesy and grainy. So be it. I have lots of other plugins from UAD, IKM, PSP, etc, but often fall back to the Ren alternatives.

Why not get the Waves demos and see what you think?
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daniel.sneed
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Re: MOTU plugs vs. Waves, etc.

Post by daniel.sneed »

It's all about sound and music ?
Then, your experience and skill may often be the most part of it.
The basic plugin you're experienced with is much deeper, and more effective, than the tremendous one you use for the first time.
IMHO, DP plugins are great.
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Armageddon
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Re: MOTU plugs vs. Waves, etc.

Post by Armageddon »

I have expended a great deal of time and money accumulating most of the "dream plugs" I thought would help make my mixes great, including Waves, URS, Chandler, IK Multimedia, PSP, Voxengo and iZotope. While all of them have their place, and a few of them are flat-out indispensable to me, having forty varieties of EQ has not made my mixes any better. Why? Because I still don't really understand EQ, which makes having a high-end linear EQ plug no better than using MOTU's ParaEQ. Double goes for compressors, limiters, saturation plugs, even reverb. Your plugs are really no better than your ability to successfully understand and use them. And if you know how use them, you'd likely get results in the same ballpark using ParaEQ or MW Equalizer (especially) as you'd get using a Waves EQ plug.

My advice (and advice I myself have been trying to take for twelve years!) is to read up on and learn what you can about using EQ, period. Apply that knowledge to your mixes using the stock EQs you already own. If you're happy with the results, but think you could be happier, then consider buying a Waves API or SSL plug.
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Prime Mover
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Re: MOTU plugs vs. Waves, etc.

Post by Prime Mover »

Agreed. I'm feeling kinda duped for buying H-EQ last week, I don't really see anything about it that I can't do (more easily) with MW EQ. Come to think of it, I've never been in a situation where I felt "gee, I wish I had an EQ that could do THIS."

Compressors, on the other hand, are a different game entirely... I'm never satisfied with my compressors, and I still think I may want to invest in a GOOD single band paremetric compressor. MW Leveler is all well and good, but I find it difficult to use as a tool. It's a nice "instrument", but I find it so unpredictable, it's hard to set it to do a very specific task. MOTU compressors are great for riding gain, but I find they're not very effective for sound sculpting. I've gotten some decent piano attack emphasis with the Leveler, but I can't get it to work very well on bass. In the end, I usually end up having to make a custom sidechain with a delayed and pre-compressed version of the good-ol' "Dynamics" plugin, to get anywhere close to what I want... and even then it's not particularly musical. There is really something to be said for a having a good attack and release curve on a compressor. Linear releases just sound unnatural a lot of the time. That's why the MW Leveler is so musical, I just wish it were predictable and better documented.
— Eric Barker
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Re: MOTU plugs vs. Waves, etc.

Post by macguy »

I do albums with only DP's plugs and people ask if they are high end plugs.
No plugin made sounds like a UAD 1073, but that's another thread.
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Re: MOTU plugs vs. Waves, etc.

Post by Dan Worley »

Prime Mover wrote:Agreed. I'm feeling kinda duped for buying H-EQ last week, I don't really see anything about it that I can't do (more easily) with MW EQ. Come to think of it, I've never been in a situation where I felt "gee, I wish I had an EQ that could do THIS."

Don't feel duped. H-EQ is impressive. Well worth the money, especially if you got it for 50% off.
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Kubi
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Re: MOTU plugs vs. Waves, etc.

Post by Kubi »

Definitely agree with Armageddon here. Don't mean to sound like a douche, but it's true: if you have to ask that question, the answer is already clear: Stay with good stock plug-ins (i.e. DPs which are just peachy) and work until you have them mastered.

Once you have a few miles under your tires, you'll know immediately what you want but aren't hearing from your plugs, and you'll know exactly which other plug-in provides it. You won't have to ask.

In other words: One should always master the violin first, and only then worry about whether to get the Stradivarius or the Amati...

:D
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Re: MOTU plugs vs. Waves, etc.

Post by Shooshie »

I'm the first to admit that I have a LOT of plugins I don't need, but I enjoy messing around with them, and I learn from them. The plugins that I use all the time however, are impressive plugins, and no, there's nothing in the MOTU roster that will do what they do with the same ease and convenience. In some cases there isn't anything by MOTU to which to compare. I've talked about them at length in here, but I don't mind mentioning them again.

Altiverb: ProVerb is nice, but it ain't Altiverb. Nor is Waves IR1, which I just bought last month, to see if it is any better. IR1 is impressive, but it is not easy to use like Altiverb, and I haven't been able to get the same level of quality so far. Perhaps after I have spent a year learning the perfect tweaks; I've spent many years with Altiverb. (Plugins tend to get better as you learn their sweet spots)

Waves C6, C4, and Linear Phase Multiband (C5): These plugins can do amazing things in about the time it takes to move a few grab-handles where you want them. The key to using these plugins is pre-visualization. When I previsualize certain outcomes that I want, sometimes I realize it would be too complicated to do with even a string of compressors, so I reach for one of the above. They nearly always can do the job. One of the keys to transferring a pre-visualization into reality is to have a frequency chart handy. I keep one on my wall by my desk, and I can tell you the pitch of any note in about the time it takes to glance over there. Octaves double in pitch, all other intervals follow fractional frequencies. This is handy for predicting which overtones you're imagining, so that you can find them on the frequency chart and nail them on the plugin.
There are few EQ's that can top MOTU's Masterworks EQ. Waves H-EQ is one of them, IMO. I love it, but I still use the MWEQ quite often, simply because I'm so accustomed to it that I'm faster on it. As I increase speed with the H-EQ, I'll probably use it more. I've never seen an EQ with such a complete feature set. FFT meter, keyboard select for pitch (saves having to look at the chart), many different flavors of EQ, and more…

L3 Multimaximizer: Threshold is divided between the bands according to priority. Distinctive quality.

Waves S1 Stereo Imager: try doing what it does with just Pan and Trim.

Waves various bass processors: I don't think you can do this with EQ. I sometimes use them on parallel tracks, and sometimes inline. MaxxBass actually adds subharmonic frequencies. You can't EQ what's not there. MaxxBass adds something that's not there, so use with care.

Waves Noise Reducers: Z-Noise, X-Hum, X-Click, X-Crackle… Yeah, right. Do that with EQ and compression. Uh-uh. Not gonna happen.

There are others, such as Nomad Factory or PSP, but I think I've made my point. Please note that I've always defended MOTU's plugins. They are very competent plugins, and some are even great. But I'm not going to pretend that I can do everything with them that I can do with the named plugins above. At the same time, remember that 15 years ago NOBODY could do those things with ANY hardware or software. This is the state of a new art. As with any frontier, there are a lot of con games and hucksters hitching a ride with the actual explorers. Take care not to be drawn into things that waste your money for dubious benefits, but on the other hand don't let that jade you against the good stuff. That said, I think this is a thread in which nobody is "right" or "wrong." We're just relating our own experiences. It was a loaded question!

Shooshie
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bayswater
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Re: MOTU plugs vs. Waves, etc.

Post by bayswater »

Agree on Maxbass. I use Rbass which is the same thing with a stripped down UI. It's almost magic.
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MOTU plugs vs. Waves, etc.

Post by lgonz »

Their new vocal and bass rider plug-ins also help to speed things up when mixing. Surely, you can automate volume/compress to achieve similar results, but these plug-ins help you get there faster, which is great on limited budget projects.

Luis
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