Seeking recommendations for books on Midi-Orchestration

zuul-studios · Post by **zuul-studios** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:36 am

Hello -

Just recently found this bulletin board. I've been a happy owner of MOTU products (audio devices) for a long time. They all work just fine, so I don't have a need (at present) to problem-solve any issues.

I am, however, wanting to improve my MIDI-based orchestration skills. Although I believe that my orchestral compositions are clear and concise sounding, they tend to lack the depth of the more "realistic" sound of a recorded orchestra. I'm interested in creating MIDI orchestral templets that will create that more "realistic" sound. I noticed on the Amazon web site that there are a least a few instructional/educational books on MIDI-orchestration. I'm seeking guidance in making a purchase for an instruction book that will meet my needs. Any suggestions??

A little bit about me. I'm a full-time ICU/CCU nurse. I also have a background (and hold a Bachelor Degree) in Film Composition that I received 30 years ago. (They didn't have MIDI, back then. I wrote music using pencil to manuscript paper and film-scored using either a up-right or flatbed movieola!! LOL!) (By the way, I STILL use "pencil to manuscript paper" as part of my compositional process, especially for the larger projects!)

I want to be able to have more control to the SOUND of my MIDI-sequences. Although I don't mind the "clear and concise" sound that I'm able to produce, I also want to be able to create a convincing sound of an orchestra as if one was listening to the music while sitting in the front-middle of an orchestra hall. (Hopefully that makes some sense! LOL!) I've heard very convincing 100% MIDI sequences of orchestral compositions that sound this way, created by very talented composers/sequencers/sound-engineers. I guess I want to be able to do what these talented people are able to do.

Thank you in advance for your thoughtful suggestions.

Ted

FMiguelez · Post by **FMiguelez** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:27 am

I don't think there's such a thing as "MIDI Orchestration".

One thing is to know how to orchestrate, and another thing is to make samples and VIs sound like a real orchestra.
Two very different skill sets.

So, which one are you really interested in?
For the former, I'd recommend the Adler and the Del Mar.

For the latter, I don't know, it depends on your VI/samples, I suppose. If there is such a book of "how to MIDI-orchestrate", then I suppose it would be very general and broad about MIDI editing techniques, but it wouldn't go into any depth for any particular VI.

I just think that if you know how to orchestrate for a real orchestra, and you master your orchestral samples (how to use them and effectively and use all the VI's features), that's all you need. One good old-fashioned orchestration book and the manual of your VIs with lots of tests should suffice.

I just think the creative aspect of orchestration is totally different and independent, and not to be confused, with the latter stages of music production (programming, mixing, etc). Totally different skill sets which I doubt you'll find all under just one book...

It sounds to me you are actually looking for a book about production/mixing, not orchestration.

zuul-studios · Post by **zuul-studios** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:58 am

FMiguelez -

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I guess I'm more interested in the sequencing/mixing (the production) aspect of creating a convincing sound of an orchestra using MIDI-based instrumental libraries. There are more than a few books that contain "MIDI orchestration" as part of their title that deal with this subject. That's the problem. There are at least a half-dozen books that I've found so far. I wish to have a book that would basically show me how to create more depth in sound with a "mock orchestra". This would most likely involve stereo positioning of the software-instruments, whether or not to use sub-mixes, the use of EQ and reverb, etc. Like I said, my MIDI-based orchestral "mock-ups" (or what ever you want to call it) sound clear and concise. In other words, all of the instruments of the orchestra that I intended to be heard are heard. But the sound lacks depth. Although the instruments of my orchestral projects can be basically heard left from right, it lacks the sound of "front to back". I've heard stereo mixes of MIDI-based orchestrations where such depth is heard. The MIDI-based orchestra pieces that I've heard sounds as if one is sitting in the second or third row in the middle and in front of the orchestra (the expensive $$$$$ seats!!! LOL!) One talented sequencer/sound engineer mixed his MIDI-orchestration in with a live orchestration and it was difficult to tell which was MIDI and which was the live recorded orchestra. Now, I doubt very much that I'll ever get as talented as that one sequencer/sound engineer. But I wish to work toward that level of MIDI sequencing/sound engineering.

Although it would be the best option for me, I can't afford to go back to music college and learn all of this. But, I am willing to self-learn by reading any good book on this specific subject. I guess that I just want the "best book" that any "pro" would recommend.

Again, thank you for your response.

Ted

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:24 am

FM is correct. Good mock ups come a solid understanding of how orchestration works. Part of that is understanding instrumentation and specific instrument and section techniques. The Berlioz treatise on this (Dover) is a great starting point.

But also, just listening carefully to acoustic recordings will help. Listen, in particular, to attacks, releases, and phrase lengths of various instruments. Wind players have to breath. String sections have to bow. All this and much more go into understanding orchestration, not to mention voice leading, cantus firmus, harmony, combinations of instruments, section and solo writing, etc.

What you need depends on what you're lacking and we really can't know what that is. The fact that YOU know something is lacking is a very good sign. You're questioning yourself. Don't stop doing that - ever!

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:26 am

There is the Gilreath book, but one of the most informative exercises is to take a day with one of your favorite scores. If you like the way that score sounds played by a real orchestra, play it into DP. It *will* sound different, but part of the lesson is that you'll know that the score itself works in a live situation. Making it work in a virtual situation where instrumental balances go is an invaluable exercise.

Any classical score would suffice, but for film scoring there are all the John Williams scores available through Hal Leonard. That's a rare blessing because film scores are not so easily available. That John has made some of his works available and accessible in full score is a major plus.

Other recommended books:

Acoustic and MIDI Orchestration for the Contemporary Composer

Here's something for the more ambitious web geeks--an online course from Berklee.

Youtube can also be a great resource with the right choice of videos. HERE'S ONE EXAMPLE with more decent examples on the side bar to the right.

The rules for MIDI orchestration are a little different from those that govern orchestration for real players. You can get away with a lot more in MIDI orchestration. The biggest mistake most people encounter in a real orchestration is over orchestrating. An oboe or English horn solo can easily get drowned out if the accompanying material is too heavy. In a virtual orchestration, one can simply goose the volume to compensate for it. But that represents one of those rules and how that rule can be broken. A virtual orchestration rarely translates to a real orchestra without an understanding of what the rules are and how those rules ought to be or ought not to be broken.... and when.

cuttime · Post by **cuttime** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:05 pm

My 2¢: Quantization is your enemy. Avoid using the same samples in duplicated instruments. I've also had good results with slight detuning, however I have had many a brickbat thrown my way for even suggesting such a thing. A slight vibrato is well within acceptable limits of detuning. A closer instrument is going to have more pre-delay than a rear instrument. You might want different sub-mixes from front to back.

zuul-studios · Post by **zuul-studios** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:27 pm

MIDI-life Crisis - (Like your user ID! LOL)

One of my weaker points is not having a large repertoire of orchestral music. I have a modest amount of jazz and progressive rock/jazz music, but not music recording of orchestras. This, obviously, will need to change. When I went to music college (30 years ago), I took arranging courses (mostly for jazz ensembles), a string writing course and a percussion writing course (as well as a fair amount of composition course). But, at that time, there was no orchestration course offered at this jazz-focused music college. Any amount of orchestration that I learned was by ear, by listening to my favorite orchestral pieces and by interacting with a few members on bulletin boards such as this one. In order to meet my compositional needs, I wish and need to learn more about the "do's" and "don'ts" of regular orchestration. It also seems that I also need to get a better hold of the sound engineering part of scoring for the "MIDI-orchestra" as well.

Frodo -

I've seen that one book,"Acoustic and MIDI Orchestration for the Contemporary Composer" available on Amazon.com (if I remember correctly). That was one that I was leaning toward purchasing. Does it talk about where to "place" each instrument on the stereo pan, and whether or not to "sub-mix" each section and where & how much to place reverb?? I would LOVE to have a basic templet to start panning each instrument (and section) of an orchestra. I would also like to know whether or not to sub-mix each section. It's what I do now. I sub-mix the strings, wood-winds, brass and percussion. I don't know if this is a good idea, but it definitely goes to creating the sound that I currently make (good or bad! LOL!).

Regarding the Berklee Online course. . . I would LOVE to take some of their on-line courses! I am a graduate from Berklee, by the way! (Graduated with a Bachelors of Music degree, with honors, in "Film Composition" -- Class of 1982!

) Back then, it cost about $4,500.00 per YEAR for both tuition and room & board. I recently checked out the cost of the on-line courses that they hold. Oh my gosh!! It costs more to take their on-line courses than it cost me to attend college there 30 years ago!!! YIKES!!!

And their regular on-campus course?!?!? WOW!! It's freakin' expensive to attend that music college!!! But then again, it's freakin' expensive to attend ANY college now-a-days. I even checked into attending a couple of music colleges associated with the State Universities of New York. The tuition for these colleges are a bit more financially reasonable. But I live too far away from them to attend their on-campus courses and they don't seem to offer a comprehensive on-line course of study. So. . . it looks like that I am faced with self-learning, which is not one of my strong points. I do better in a class-room situation, especially when it comes to finishing projects.

Anyway, here is an example of one of my most recent works. The name of the piece is "Winter in Mid-January" which I finished in March, 2011. It's about 6 minutes long. I don't expect anyone to listen to the entire thing. It is, however, a good representation of my current abilities with MIDI-based orchestration. I want to have more control with the sound. This will entail more study and research into orchestration. But it seems that this will also involve learning more advanced techniques in MIDI sequencing and sound engineering as mentioned above.

http://www.toolivenurse.com/non_TLN_mus ... nalMix.mp3

I used a combination of Garritan's GPO, JABB and Kirk Hunter Studio's Diamond Orchestra. I'm sure that I need to do a better job of blending these libraries together. I could also purchase those more expensive libraries which do a better job or replicating a more realistic orchestral sound. I know that it's considered the more "lower-end" of orchestral libraries, but I have heard GREAT orchestral mock-ups using GPO alone. So, it seems that a better understanding of orchestration AND mixing everything together will make even GPO sound great. (And despite what others may think, I do think that GPO is a great library.) In other words, my aim is to make the best use of what I already own; to make them sing!

Anyway. . . thank you all for your time. I'm going to check out the links provided (including the links associated with YouTube and slowly work to improve my composing and sequencing chops!

Cheers. . .

Ted

Edited to add:

Cuttime -

I see that you wrote your post most probably the same time that I wrote time. I use very little quantization. If I use any, I weaken it by about 30% or so. My problem is that I'm a freakin' walking metronome! LOL! I guess it comes with many years of practicing the piano with the metronome and sequencing (with that constant beep-beep-beep-beep. . .) LOL. You're points are well-taken and I thank you for sharing them!

Ted

kgdrum · Post by **kgdrum** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:40 pm

I am not in the league w/ this like Frodo or MLC by any means but a simple search via google will give you orchestra seating charts.

http://www.google.com/search?q=orchestr ... 20&bih=416" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:27 pm

kg, you're a smart cat with great instincts. At the end of the day, all that matters is common sense and you've got that going on big time. The seating charts do help greatly with matching panning, etc. That's a very smart approach.

I'm gradually digging up old links on this topic, but here's one of my favorites. There are really a series of links associated with this particular project, but I thought it was pretty cool.

The project is called "From Sketch to Score", and the compositional snippet used for it is called "Mojo Madness". It's top shelf stuff, imho. There are mp3s and quite a few PDFs to show part of the process.

Scroll down to "June/July 2007" for all the associated files.

Whether or not one has Altiverb, this link can still be enlightening. I worry that the mp3s don't do the demonstration full justice, but it does cover important aspects of moving instruments around in a virtual reverberant space. If nothing else, it might open the door to a different line of creative thinking.

Now, at one point in time I had a great reference link to a book about mixing a virtual orchestra-- how to pan, ways to apply comps and limiters, types of reverbs to use and why- but I can't seem to put my paw on that link at the moment. But, in hobbit-nator true form, "I'll be back" when I nail it down.

zuul-studios · Post by **zuul-studios** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:01 pm

kgdrum and Frodo -

Thank you for the "Google" link, kgdrum! Very cool stuff found on Google!!

Now. . . how does one create that "front to back sound" of an orchestra???? I can and do attempt to set up the orchestral instruments from left to right. I most probably can do a better job at doing that. But how does one create that "front to back" sound, that "depth" of sound???

And Frodo, thank you for taking the time to find helpful links.

Everyone's response has been most helpful and gratefully received.

Ted

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:17 pm

zuul-studios wrote:
Now. . . how does one create that "front to back sound" of an orchestra???? I can and do attempt to set up the orchestral instruments from left to right. I most probably can do a better job at doing that. But how does one create that "front to back" sound, that "depth" of sound???

It might take a bit of "brain" to think through the pyscho-acoustic elements, but give it some thought for a sec.

The brass and percussion sit closer to the back wall of the stage, so early reflections are going to be more prominent with those instruments that they would be with strings and winds. That means that creating a more prominent early delay setting for brass and percussion in a reverb would be more indubitable than for strings and winds.

In the Altiverb link, I really wish that the results of the audio snippets were more sonically obvious. But, that feature in Altiverb justified my investment in it. To move an instrument around within a reverberant space in a way that is sonically convincing has been the thing I've missed in my mixings for a long time.

I'm still in search of other links about mixing a virtual orchestra and shall return ASAP.

kgdrum · Post by **kgdrum** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:00 pm

not orchestral oriented but good info in either case.
re:the usage of eq delay and reverb to create depth:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb09/a ... pspace.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

zuul-studios · Post by **zuul-studios** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:05 am

kgdrum -

Thanks for the link! I checked it out and even book-marked the internet address for future reference! I also book-marked the Sound on Sound web site. It seems to hold of wealth of information on sound engineering which is one of my weaker points.

Frodo -

I'm also a happy owner of Altiverb. I know that I don't use it to its fullest potential. I can see, though, how many instances of Altiverb can help create the "depth" of sound. I can also see how many instances of Altiverb can hugely tax the CPU! LOL! (Although the newer Altiverb 7 seems to be more CPU friendly than its predecessor.

)

Cheers. . .

Ted

buzzsmith · Post by **buzzsmith** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:47 am

kgdrum wrote:not orchestral oriented but good info in either case.
re:the usage of eq delay and reverb to create depth:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb09/a ... pspace.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

Thanks!

Buzzy

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:28 am

zuul-studios wrote:
Frodo -

I'm also a happy owner of Altiverb. I know that I don't use it to its fullest potential. I can see, though, how many instances of Altiverb can help create the "depth" of sound. I can also see how many instances of Altiverb can hugely tax the CPU! LOL! (Although the newer Altiverb 7 seems to be more CPU friendly than its predecessor. )

Cheers. . .

Ted

It is possible to use aux busses for different sections of the orchestra based upon their virtual placement in the mix. Doing this will help eliminate squandering resources by not putting one instance of Altiverb on every instrument track. One method some use is to submix winds, strings, percussion, and brass, and then to use four instances Altiverb on those submixes-- but only using the pre-delays to control the early reflections. Another instance of Altiverb *could* go on the master (or another aux) for the entire orchestra, but using only the reverb tail.

It's also important to note that large projects will tax the CPU. If you're on an Intel, the CPU can handle it, although you will definitely be putting it to work. As long as the CPU doesn't go into meltdown, you should be okay.

There are other ways of streamlining your workflow to make the most of your resources.

1. You've got 32GB of RAM. Run your most demanding VIs in standalone mode to make use of that RAM. Otherwise, all of your VIs and plugins will clog DP's current memory limit of less-than 4GB.

Also, it seems as if your machine will boot the 64-bit kernel. If you're VIs are 64-bit, then running them outside of DP could offer additional benefits where memory access is concerned. Another VI host such as Vienna Ensemble Pro or Bidule can also help keep things tidy.

2. This may not be necessary with your machine, but if your project involves real instruments or vocals, bounce those audio tracks to a single stereo track and just work with that until you're ready to do your final mix. It's not likely that you'll be tracking real instruments AND orchestrating at the same time. Streamlining your project can help save resources. When you're ready to mix, raise your audio buffers and fly in your separate audio tracks back in.

3. Any machine will get to a point of diminishing returns if overloaded. Some virtual orchestrators doing particularly large projects still find it necessary to offload some of their instruments onto a second machine. That's not to say that this is a must, but if you're doing something of the scope of "The Lord of the Rings" or "Star Wars", your projects may indeed tax a single machine.

4. Short of adding another computer, consider an eSATA stack of hard drives of some sort. I've got other instruments on my internal drives, but my larger orchestral and grand piano libraries are all on eSATAII drives. Streaming is better than, say, firewire, and CPU hits are lower. What helps here is that different instrumental groups are on their own drives, so seek times and transfer rates are vastly improved if the most demanding VIs are not being streamed from a single drive.

Just a few starter ideas. Any of this can be repurposed or reapplied according to one's personal workflow preferences.

Scroll down to "June/July 2007" for all the associated files.

EDIT-- it's just June/July, not June/July 2007. In fact, I'm having trouble with the mp3 link. Hmm.

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