Question for Orchestrators

[KenNickels]

Banjo is never wrong for any moment.

LMAO - You may be right about that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lgzs6pT2 ... ure=colike" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[skyy38]

I'm self-taught but have studied a lot of scores by the great masters. I probably make a lot of 'mistakes' but when I hear them played by real orchestras they sound the way I intended them to and I don't get too many complaints.

So the answer for me is there is no book. If it sounds good, it is good. If it sounds right, it is right.

YMMV and I'm sure the more learned orchestrators will have something to say about it. But for my money, art has no rules, just 'good' and 'bad' practitioners. Of course there are mediocre practitioners as well, but they actually count for less than 'bad' ones IMO. A lot can be learned from 'bad' work. More can be learned from 'good' work. But mediocre work seems to do no more than to restate what the 'proper rules' are and in doing so, do nothing to really advance an art form.

Drummer Chester Thompson once said "Learn your technique, then forget it and play from the heart"

If Jerry Goldsmith had followed "the rules" we would not have "Planet Of The Apes".

If John Williams had followed "the rules" we would not have "Cantina Band".

[FMiguelez]

If Jerry Goldsmith had followed "the rules" we would not have "Planet Of The Apes".

If John Williams had followed "the rules" we would not have "Cantina Band".

I could not disagree more even if I wanted to.

Do you have any substance to back up those outrageous claims?
Did THEY tell you that, or is that simply how you want to understand it?

Also, what exactly do you mean by "The Rules"?

Also, what is it about the rules they broke that allowed them to write the music you mentioned?
What do you think it would have sounded like had they followed "the rules"?


Music is not about rules (or lack of them)!

Please don't tell me about those evil parallel 5ths...

[KenNickels]

***


Music is not about rules (or lack of them)!

Please don't tell me about those evil parallel 5ths...
***


I know what you mean, but I'm going to disagree a little, because there are rules and then there are "rules." If you were going to write a fugue, you'd have to follow fugue rules or it wouldn't be a fugue. Or if you wanted to write something in the style of Mozart, for example, you'd have to adopt Mozart like rules. Modern music is interesting because you can make up your own rules. But rules are useful there too because they can restrain you and rein you in from the anxiety of having too many choices. Like, if you can do anything, you may wind up doing nothing. So, if you say, "I'm going to use ONLY strings for this piece," that's a sort of rule, right?

Here is a broad "suggestion" for good music that you all know by practice or by teacher. Keep a balance between Contrast and uniformity. Too much contrast and the listener won't know what he's listening to. Too much uniformity and you'll put the listener to sleep.

[FMiguelez]

I know what you mean, but I'm going to disagree a little, because there are rules and then there are "rules." If you were going to write a fugue, you'd have to follow fugue rules or it wouldn't be a fugue. Or if you wanted to write something in the style of Mozart, for example, you'd have to adopt Mozart like rules. Modern music is interesting because you can make up your own rules. But rules are useful there too because they can restrain you and rein you in from the anxiety of having too many choices. Like, if you can do anything, you may wind up doing nothing. So, if you say, "I'm going to use ONLY strings for this piece," that's a sort of rule, right?

Here is a broad "suggestion" for good music that you all know by practice or by teacher. Keep a balance between Contrast and uniformity. Too much contrast and the listener won't know what he's listening to. Too much uniformity and you'll put the listener to sleep.

Your response seems a little strawman-ish...
Everything I wrote was in the context of a response to skyy38's comment. I never said anything about what you just mentioned (not following rules -so I'm not sure what you're disagreeing to).

Of course there are rules and conventions and all that, depending on styles. I'm not disagreeing there! Sky is actually implying that if they had followed the rules they couldn't have written that music. That's what I'm challenging. (You and I are actually in agreement).

[KenNickels]

I know what you mean, but I'm going to disagree a little, because there are rules and then there are "rules." If you were going to write a fugue, you'd have to follow fugue rules or it wouldn't be a fugue. Or if you wanted to write something in the style of Mozart, for example, you'd have to adopt Mozart like rules. Modern music is interesting because you can make up your own rules. But rules are useful there too because they can restrain you and rein you in from the anxiety of having too many choices. Like, if you can do anything, you may wind up doing nothing. So, if you say, "I'm going to use ONLY strings for this piece," that's a sort of rule, right?

Here is a broad "suggestion" for good music that you all know by practice or by teacher. Keep a balance between Contrast and uniformity. Too much contrast and the listener won't know what he's listening to. Too much uniformity and you'll put the listener to sleep.

Your response seems a little strawman-ish...
Everything I wrote was in the context of a response to skyy38's comment. I never said anything about what you just mentioned (not following rules -so I'm not sure what you're disagreeing to).

Of course there are rules and conventions and all that, depending on styles. I'm not disagreeing there! Sky is actually implying that if they had followed the rules they couldn't have written that music. That's what I'm challenging. (You and I are actually in agreement).

Strawman ... I had to look up that word in the dictionary! No problem. I was trying to broaden the dialogue, not derail it. These threads have a tendency to mutate from one post to the next. But MOVIES' original thread title should have been, "Musical Rules:how do they work?," because that's what we're talking about. Sky made some vague generalizations to which you followed up with appropriate challenges, and your statement, 'Music is not about rules, or the lack thereof...' prompted my 2 cent flesh-out, because this was also a generalization. But yes, we are in agreement.

[stubbsonic]

I remember a teacher making a huge disclaimer about the word "rules" saying that "observations" was more accurate and useful. If a person studies the music of any culture, time, place, etc., they are apt to discover certain patterns and tendencies and certain things that are just not done. To turn around and call those rules (when the word rules has baggage of its own) is a bit careless. I don't think it is wrong, it is just apt to be misinterpreted as "you must not do this."

And if an assignment was given like figured bass or something that, I did have teachers who were careful to point out various things like doubled-leading tone, or parallel fifths and just say "It's not in the style."

WRT to orchestration, there are many times when a person will want to reflect a particular style, period, culture, and may look to rules for guidance. If a project requires authenticity in a particular style of music, then thinking of these "observations" as rules might be helpful for some who need to really be "inside" a certain kind of thought process.

[skyy38]

If Jerry Goldsmith had followed "the rules" we would not have "Planet Of The Apes".

If John Williams had followed "the rules" we would not have "Cantina Band".

I could not disagree more even if I wanted to.

Do you have any substance to back up those outrageous claims?
Did THEY tell you that, or is that simply how you want to understand it?

Also, what exactly do you mean by "The Rules"?

Also, what is it about the rules they broke that allowed them to write the music you mentioned?
What do you think it would have sounded like had they followed "the rules"?


Music is not about rules (or lack of them)!

Please don't tell me about those evil parallel 5ths...

***************************************************************************

How by-the-book are your orchestrations generally? Like, in a given project, do you tend to make a lot of choices that suit the circumstances, but might stray from strict counterpoint/voice-leading or do you try to keep things as, like, clinical as possible?

By-the-book = The rules, meaning further, are you conventional or unconventional or perhaps , BOTH?

"Outrageous claims" ? A little heavy handed, don't you think or have you even listened to the score for POTA? I guess you never heard about the "mouthpieces removed from the French Horns" bit and that is just item one, among several.

I prefer the term, "common knowledge"

http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/mus ... e+Apes.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Let's see POTA would have sounded like any other late 60's popcorn sci-fi flick if it was conventional.

Cantina Band, without the ARP synth and steel drum would have been just another "swingin' tune" from the 70's, if it was conventional.

[FMiguelez]

"Outrageous claims" ? A little heavy handed, don't you think...

Could be...

By-the-book = The rules, meaning further, are you conventional or unconventional or perhaps , BOTH?

I see.
So by breaking the rules you meant being unconventional in terms of instrumentation, as in using instruments in unintended ways? I've never seen a rule that instructs anyone not to put paper clips and aluminum sheets in pianos' strings, or a rule that says one can't use a viola bow over a cymbal, for instance.
20th Century "rules" are hard to break, since there are hardly any rules. Anything's fair game

But now that you explain what you mean I see where you are coming from. The thing is that one could also be pretty "unconventional" while still using certain rules (one could use Schoenberg's Twelve Tone Row or Forte's atonal techniques). This would be unconventional, at least relative to Haydn, even if it wouldn't impress Wojciech Kilar, for example.

I don't necessarily see using instruments in unintended ways as "breaking the rules", but simply as a means of getting a certain color or special effect.
That's why I don't like thinking of music in terms of breaking or following rules. Just write the music you hear in your head by whatever means one needs. If one hears something Classic then one knows what needs to be done. If one hears something more modern then one also knows which devices to use, etc.