Which Comes First - Picture or Music?

[KenNickels]

I've thought about this a lot. Might be a good topic for discussion. Which comes first, the picture or the music?

Not that one necessarily trumps the other. Because in the end the result is good cinema (and good music). Mostly, picture is dominant while music, though integral, is the peg that must fit into the hole and not the other way around. But in some cases picture is set to music, and I think this is really cool.

Some filmmakers come to mind, like Kubrick, for example. Remember Jack Nicholson in the Shining walking down the hall with Penderecki playing and he's moving his arms in sync with the music. Kubrick could have cut it either way, but the point is he has always respected long stretches of unedited music, and adjusted the picture to follow.

I'd love to hear your own opinions and examples of this 'alternate marriage', but for now here's my example.

Sibelius 'Valse Triste' as used in 'Allegro non troppo,' a good orchestration, perhaps muddy in places, but exponentially more coherent when you see the film. If you have not seen the film, you would not have realized the full meaning of the shifting major/minor cadences that occur throughout the piece.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=Bh7 ... h7000ciJYQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[FMiguelez]

It's our job to make the director or whomever hire us happy, whatever that means.

You can write the best cues in the world, but if the director doesn't like whay you do your score gets thrown out.
King kong anyone?

[MIDI Life Crisis]

For me, largely scoring old silent films, the picture always comes first. I prefer that but I also write for theatre and dance and the music always comes first or in close proximity.

But then again, I never let the picture force the music too much and prefer to score several minutes and let the music have a free feeling rather than more Mickey Mouse.

[KenNickels]

For me, largely scoring old silent films, the picture always comes first. I prefer that but I also write for theatre and dance and the music always comes first or in close proximity.

But then again, I never let the picture force the music too much and prefer to score several minutes and let the music have a free feeling rather than more Mickey Mouse.

Interesting. That sounds like a very pragmatic approach to scoring. I mean, the music has to stand on it's own, right?

But what I am seeking out in my post are examples of art where text or film or name-your-media is constructed out of existing music, and so you cannot modify the music, you can only apply a lacquer, as it were. Like in film scoring, the music is to be applied to a finished product. So I'm saying, consider music as the finished product, to which other disciplines may be applied.

Here's another example. The brilliant radio monologue artist, Joe Frank, constructed an entire play out of Newman's Shawshank Redemption score, and it had nothing whatsoever to do with The Shawshank Redemption. See what I mean?

You won't find it online anywhere. If you're interested in hearing this, let me know and I'll upload an abbreviated video onto utube

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Well, IMO the music always should be good enough to stand on its own - at least that's what I shoot for. Whether or not that is successful is another matter best left to the viewer.

If you're interested, you can tear a few of these apart.

http://www.midilifecrisis.com/MichaelMortilla_Bio.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.midilifecrisis.com/MortillaV ... torFS.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Click on the film titles to stream content. Or not...

[KenNickels]

Well, IMO the music always should be good enough to stand on its own - at least that's what I shoot for. Whether or not that is successful is another matter best left to the viewer.

If you're interested, you can tear a few of these apart.

http://www.midilifecrisis.com/MichaelMortilla_Bio.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.midilifecrisis.com/MortillaV ... torFS.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Click on the film titles to stream content. Or not...

I had some trouble with streaming, etc. on these links. But otherwise what I heard was warm and engaging music. I envy the silent film composer title you've been given. Freedom is given always in the context of restraint.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Just rechecked all the links and they seem to be working. Maybe the server was clogged or something? I did have a problem with this last week but reloaded all the movies and they were (and are on my connection) working fine - albeit streaming a little sluggishly.

Sorry.

[cowtothesky]

I prefer video first. I try to think of the film on a large scale, such as - what is the point, what is the film trying to convey, where does it begin and where does it end, etc.. All those things allow me to get a big picture of how I will approach the score.

Lately, I have been getting more and more requests to send music after only seeing a short clip. I have done this a few times and have had some good results, but I usually end up not using anything I originally sent (unless the director demands it). When I get the locked-in film, I will start from scratch, maybe using elements of what I sent early on. I think it helps them cut the film by having music, but I would really prefer not even seeing it until it is completed.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I agree with that. The big problem with that is some editor will use a temp track which more often than not is likely some fast paced junky POC. This can sometimes result in pacing, while brisk and perhaps cool, works against the narrative.

Ideally, one should be lucky enough to work with a director with an actual vision and not just a 'pick and choose from the editors desk' approach and work collaboratively more like one might in an 'old world' composer/choreographer relationship. They talk about the narrative, motion, effect, and all aspects of the project from mundane peripherals to deep psychological meaning. Then the two (yes two - one director; one composer) go their ways and come together at a later date and find ways to meld their individual storytelling skills into a piece of high art.

TMI? Only if you are stuck working in a not so perfect world. IMO.

[KenNickels]

It's our job to make the director or whomever hire us happy, whatever that means.

You can write the best cues in the world, but if the director doesn't like whay you do your score gets thrown out.
King kong anyone?

OK. But let's say you're not a composer. You've been given a score that cannot be changed. It's 'locked.' You have to produce a picture. You're a videographer. My thread title is what-if, whimsical, (and, sorry, obviously not very clear to the forum) not a quest for actual advice (though your responses are well taken). Obviously, obviously! video drives the process for music scoring when given picture. I was asking for the musical community to consider examples of the opposite. You know, just for fun. My examples should have made it clear, but no one seems to have realized the intent of this thread.

[FMiguelez]

Then the approach would obviously change. One thing is to score to picture (with its shades of grey), and another is to edit picture to a score (with its shades too). It depends on what the goal is.

But my post stands. The only thing that matters, at least from a job POV, is to make the director happy, to do what he wants, to realize his vision one way or the other (whether it's S --> P or P -->S).

Now, from the ARTISTIC POV... hopefully you (we) and the director and the decision-making team have some artistry to really make a great work. There's nothing more annoying than working with your hands "tied" because of a moron director or producer

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I also stand by my posts. Looked at another way, one might ask: What comes first: concept or reality?

Can you have love without feeling? Clearly you can have the reverse, and I think all these 'realize' the point of the topic question.

In my experience, every collaboration is unique and in many ways like a marriage. The best ones are a matter of give and take; respect and forgiveness. The worst ones... well, you've seen Plan 999 from Outer Space!

[KenNickels]

*** I also stand by my posts. Looked at another way, one might ask: What comes first: concept or reality? ***

Your posts are well-taken and informative. MLC's broad iterative approach to a 'marriage' is cool. And FM's pragmatic view with regard to pleasing the director is obviously necessary. Art, after all, is not just concept. (Hope and Change comes to mind ). The rubber has to meet the road somewhere. I'm interested in the mechanics of it, you know, how things get done.

A marriage between disciplines would seem to be perfect, but sometimes supplication is required to achieve the end, yes? It can go either way.

Well, has anyone worked with animation? I don't know if it's true, but I've heard that the voice-overs are done first, and the 'pictures' are then applied.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

You've heard correctly. Animators often incorporate characteristics of performers as well. I scored some animation (also with live action) you might be interested in.

http://www.midilifecrisis.com/MortillaUCLAFSet.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[KenNickels]

MIDI Life Crisis

I've tried to listen to your music but I click 'till I can't click no more on your website and the links lead to nowhere ... What gives?