How do people manage levels in a Kontakt multi-patch?

[Prime Mover]

As some may have guessed from the various posts I've been making recently, I've been playing around with guitar synth patches like Shreddage and PettinhouseFree. Now, a lot of these guitar synths use multiple patches within Kontakt (set to the same MIDI channel) to produce different parts of the sound: one patch for the pick noise, one patch for the main sound, and others for fret noise and release. Normally, I've found that by default, most of the pick and fret sounds are WAY too loud. So I would like to decrease those patches without changing the overall volume of the instrument. But because Kontakt responds to CC7 commands, and all of these patches are receiving from the same MIDI channel, the moment you hit play, all of the instruments snap back to the same volume.

Obviously, there are many people using these instruments, so I'm wondering what some of the better solutions are to changing relative volumes of multi-patch instruments. I know inside each patch you can control the levels of the samples, but that destroys the level settings that the programmers created for the individual groups. Is there a way to dissable the sending of CC7 commands to that instrument? I don't really care about automating the level from the MIDI track anyway, much better to do it on the instrument track itself.

[Shooshie]

It's been quite some time since I've used Kontakt, but there is a control page somewhere, accessible from a little menubar of icons, that has something to do with the interpretation of CC #7. Would it have any affect on what you're talking about? If not, then I don't really know a way, other than assigning a separate audio out to each one, and then adjusting their output through the built-in mixing board. In the mixing board you can assign the audio outs, but to get them to correspond to certain busses in DP is a guessing game, IIRC.

Shooshie

[frankf]

As some may have guessed from the various posts I've been making recently, I've been playing around with guitar synth patches like Shreddage and PettinhouseFree. Now, a lot of these guitar synths use multiple patches within Kontakt (set to the same MIDI channel) to produce different parts of the sound: one patch for the pick noise, one patch for the main sound, and others for fret noise and release. Normally, I've found that by default, most of the pick and fret sounds are WAY too loud. So I would like to decrease those patches without changing the overall volume of the instrument. But because Kontakt responds to CC7 commands, and all of these patches are receiving from the same MIDI channel, the moment you hit play, all of the instruments snap back to the same volume.

Obviously, there are many people using these instruments, so I'm wondering what some of the better solutions are to changing relative volumes of multi-patch instruments. I know inside each patch you can control the levels of the samples, but that destroys the level settings that the programmers created for the individual groups. Is there a way to dissable the sending of CC7 commands to that instrument? I don't really care about automating the level from the MIDI track anyway, much better to do it on the instrument track itself.

To change the Instrument level in Kontakt4:
1. Click the Wrench to open edit mode for the Instrument for which you want to change the volume. Make sure none of the tabs are chosen
2. Move the Instrument Volume knob to the level you want
3. Save the Instrument

To turn of Volume cc7 automation for the patch:
1. Click on the Wrench to open edit mode
2. Click the Instrument Options tab
3. Uncheck "Accept Standard Controllers for Volume and Pan"
4. Save

If you still want to automate Pan, right click on the pan slider or pan knob and assign cc10 to it from your controller via MIDI learn. You may want to leave "Accept Standard Controllers for Volume and Pan" checked and insert Volume and pan events at the beginning of the MIDI track and turn automation on so MIDI fader doesn't change. Then automate volume and pan on the audio track. Or a combination of the 2.a

Frank

[James Steele]

I had a similar issue using Steven Slate Drums EX. I used a different approach. I open the automation settings for the MIDI track routed to Kontakt then set it to respond ONLY to the controllers specified and then leave that box empty. When you do that DP will no longer send the current fader position every time you hit play.

[Prime Mover]

James, that seems like by far the best solution. I really don't care about sending MIDI volume and pan in these things... I prefer the behavior of audio automation over MIDI controller automation anyway, so I will just automate the levels of the instrument track.

[James Steele]

Yeah... I was nervous about going through the Slate Drums instruments and changing the setting and re-saving each one. With the Slate Drums they're laid out so that each kit piece is a separate instrument within Kontakt, but they're all on the SAME MIDI channel. Yet, the kick might be set to 0.0db and the hihat might be at -10.0db. Soon as I would hit play in DP, all the volumes would set to ONE value (whatever the fader of the MIDI track targeting Kontakt was set to), and it would destroy the balance of the instruments (i.e. different kit pieces.) I was wondering why the drums sounded like crap and the hihats were way too loud, etc. And, it was likely moving every every kit piece to be panned center as well.

Bottom line is that was the easiest way for me to tackle that issue. Glad it helped. It was a head scratcher for me for a while when I first got SSD EX and couldn't figure out why the kits sounded awful.

[Prime Mover]

Yeah, I'm seeing more and more multi-patch instruments out there, which leads me to believe that it's time that NI needs to respond to the issue by allowing for greater flexability within a single patch. I just created my first Kontakt patch last night, using samples from an old Irish Bodhran drum, and while it worked perfectly for that, I noticed some things that would make it kind of difficult to layer samples on the same note while in round-robin mode, which tends to be the name of the game these days. Basically, in using round robin, you're forced to forfit many of other of the advantages that sample groups offer. So for complex instruments that need to round-robin as well as separate different aspects of the sound (in my case pick, note, and release noise), you're kind of screwed. They may have some advanced scripting that makes it possible, but it may not be compatable with older versions of Kontakt, and most of the softsynth makers are trying to be as compatable as possible.

But ya know what would solve ALL of this? An added "trim" pot to each instrument header that doesn't respond to MIDI controlers. I'm a big fan of trim pots... sorta wish DP had one as well (Sonar is the only DAW that does, to my knowledge). Sometimes you lay down a bunch of automation, only to find that a track is too hot in the mix. It's becoming so universal to add a Trim plugin to each track, I'm thinking it would be nice for MOTU to just add one in the mixer window. But at least with DP there's a really easy solution, with Kontakt, it would be a godsend.

[Shooshie]

I had a similar issue using Steven Slate Drums EX. I used a different approach. I open the automation settings for the MIDI track routed to Kontakt then set it to respond ONLY to the controllers specified and then leave that box empty. When you do that DP will no longer send the current fader position every time you hit play.

Bingo. Game over!


Shoosh

[Dan Worley]

Oh, thank goodness. This has been driving me nuts for quite a long time. I don't do much of this stuff, so every time I do, I remember what a pain it has been in the past. Now I know what to do about it. Thank you!

c-ya,

Dan Worley