Arranging/Orchestrating Workflow

[bdr]

Just wondering how you guys and gals that do this stuff in DP work. The main thing I don't feel I have a good workflow in is linear writing, using DP, especially string arranging. I'm doing a lot of pop/faux Broadway tunes at the moment most of which have string pads and more complicated string writing, but to get the right voice leading and counterpoint I feel like I have to write it out in manuscript and play it in.

Do any of you that do this sort of stuff still basically sketch things out first to get it right, or do you have another method of working where you can put things straight into DP?

Very interested to hear from arrangers.
Brett

[MIDI Life Crisis]

IMO there is no substitution for seeing parts written out to be absolutely sure of your writing. Your ear can certainly decide if it's "good*" but it's your eye (at least my eye) that determines if it's "right."

*- "If it sounds good, it is good." ~ The Duke

[Frodo]

... but to get the right voice leading and counterpoint I feel like I have to write it out in manuscript and play it in.

It has to start somewhere. I find it less confusing to just sit down with a pen and paper to sort out the voice leading, harmonies and counterpoint first. Dealing with DP means dealing with sounds-- and you really don't want the limitations and haggles of virtual instruments to interfere with your vision of what you want too soon. Quite often, VIs get in the way too early in the process, and because something we've dreamed about doesn't work so well, we abandon the idea. Even worse, trying to get a VI to do something it ought to do but cannot can take the brain and spirit out of the more musical aspects of the project and more into the technical aspects.

... or do you have another method of working where you can put things straight into DP?

If you're a veritable Mozart with the entire score in your head, putting the notes directly into DP is a no-brainer.

For completely original self-contained orchestral compositions, I must start with pencil and paper first. For lots of other projects, I'm often sent tracks to "sweeten". These get beat mapped and imported into an appropriate template in DP. That, in effect, becomes my pencil and paper from which I can experiment with string lines and different possibilities.

I'm working with this method this very week. A lot of times I will just lay in my lead lines-- generally with violin 1, but often something will strike me as being immediately ideal for the viola or cello. Then I'll go back and start laying in harmonies and counterpoint.

At other times, pads are all that's needed. That doesn't mean that there should be no voice leading in favor of using nothing other than long tones, but getting the long tones in is an important start.

Say, for example, I've sorted out a four-part chord progression in half-notes that includes the following notes in the top voice: C-D-E. That might cover the basics for a track, but it can be uninteresting. I might go back and alter that series of three notes with passing tones like this: C-b-c-D-g-f-E. I'll then take another look at the other three voices and augment them accordingly.

Pencil and paper is always fun because it allows me to forget about VIs and aspects of getting sounds when all I want to do is write music. But there are times when I'll use DP as a virtual sketch pad with the expectation of revising those virtual sketches later on as needed.

[mhschmieder]

This is probably mostly due to my ideas coming to me in gigantic blinding flashes, but I still find it quicker to capture everything on paper first.

This gives me the opportunity to use shorthand techniques and mnemonics, so that I can get as much on paper as possible, including nuances and articulation (as well as voice-leading), before any of it escapes into the ether.

These days, with a new computer, I am finally finding it possible to QUICKLY start and finish a mock-up, vs. having it continue to sit in a pile of non-backed-up or photocopied musical sketches for many years.

I do hope to start getting more adept at dedicated notation programs such as Notion (and maybe eventually Finale or Sibelius), to see if there are shorthand ways that I can use those tools to even more quickly capture a musical thought.

The thing is, I am still finding it quicker to write it down first, then use a keyboard alongside real instruments to quickly record a partial mock-up as a reference, and only later move on to formal notation.

Years ago, I remember reading on countless forums that "real composers don't play". I don't know if this was meant as an indirect criticism of a MIDI-first approach limiting the naturalness of a composition in terms of rubato and markings, or whether the point was that this limits us to what we are physically capable of playing ourselves and therefore may result in less interesting compositions.

[bdr]

Thanks for the responses. It's interesting to me to hear how you work, and it seems to me that to get to a certain level of voice leading and counterpoint nothing less than writing it out works. But even with simple pads, if want them to come out 'proper', I can't do the lazy keyboardist thing and just play one block chord to the next. I've battled this for a long time, where I'll play some pads in with 'string ensemble' then try to split the notes so that they are voiced and orchestrated properly to each string part, then work through each part to clean them up, but it has almost never worked satisfactorily for me. I'm going to keep some manuscript paper handy for a while as I'm sequencing and see how that feels.

I wonder if Adagio for Strings could have even been done purely in DP?

[Frodo]

Years ago, I remember reading on countless forums that "real composers don't play". I don't know if this was meant as an indirect criticism of a MIDI-first approach limiting the naturalness of a composition in terms of rubato and markings, or whether the point was that this limits us to what we are physically capable of playing ourselves and therefore may result in less interesting compositions.

Long before the days of MIDI, that comment was tossed around by a lot of composers. Its most innocent meaning is that it is important to be able to look at a score and "hear" the notes in your head without having to play them the same way it's important to be able to jot down what you hear in your head without having to sort it all out at the piano or one's instrument of choice.

At its worst, that comment was generally asserted as an insult, but what I've found is that most composers who'd so readily use that comment CAN'T play!

The truth is, real composers DO play: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev, Ravel, Bernstein-- and the list goes on. Did they always sit down at the piano to compose? Probably not. There are times when writing orchestrations can be limited by what the hands can do at the piano. But I think it's unfair to suggest that all composers worth their salt should avoid sorting out the physics of playing their own works without examining the challenges on one instrument or other during the composing process.

I would even suggest to all composers that examining new musical ideas through improvisation is a great way to refine one's "voice". But there's another goof: there are lots of composers who must write everything down because they can't improvise!

[Frodo]

I wonder if Adagio for Strings could have even been done purely in DP?

I'd say yes. It could have also been done purely in Finale or Sibelius, imho.

For me, dealing with sounds, software, computer glitches, etc., tend to be a distraction-- but if one is a fluent with DP and all involved as they are with a pencil and paper then I'd be reluctant to say that it couldn't be done.

[bdr]

I wonder if Adagio for Strings could have even been done purely in DP?

I'd say yes. It could have also been done purely in Finale or Sibelius, imho.

For me, dealing with sounds, software, computer glitches, etc., tend to be a distraction-- but if one is a fluent with DP and all involved as they are with a pencil and paper then I'd be reluctant to say that it couldn't be done.

I could certainly see it done in a notation program like Sibelius, where the focus is on the notation of the score over the rendering of it. But DP's focus is an audio rendering of a piece, not score based, and so that for me gets back to how to get the linear parts in nicely. If I approached DP trying to get each line sounding good individually and as a whole then I couldn't play it in, I would have to do it in step time or by drawing notes into quickscribe, which then sonically would end up basically the same as a Sibelius score.

[Frodo]

I could certainly see it done in a notation program like Sibelius, where the focus is on the notation of the score over the rendering of it. But DP's focus is an audio rendering of a piece, not score based, and so that for me gets back to how to get the linear parts in nicely. If I approached DP trying to get each line sounding good individually and as a whole then I couldn't play it in, I would have to do it in step time or by drawing notes into quickscribe, which then sonically would end up basically the same as a Sibelius score.

The issue is in knowing what notes you'd want to enter with any music software app. I can play parts into DP a lot faster than I can manage the key strokes (or the mouse) in a notation program. The key with DP is not to get hung up or distracted too early in the process about the actual sounds (ie: patches). Coming up with good lines is the same (for me) whether I'm playing or using a pencil. Once again, I can think and play a lot faster than I can use a pencil or a notation app.

If the question is strictly about whether it could be done, then that answer is "yes". If that question goes further to assess whether or not it would be one's preferred method, then the answer becomes more of an individual choice for which the answer will not likely be as simple.

[FMiguelez]

Just wondering how you guys and gals that do this stuff in DP work. The main thing I don't feel I have a good workflow in is linear writing, using DP, especially string arranging. I'm doing a lot of pop/faux Broadway tunes at the moment most of which have string pads and more complicated string writing, but to get the right voice leading and counterpoint I feel like I have to write it out in manuscript and play it in.

Do any of you that do this sort of stuff still basically sketch things out first to get it right, or do you have another method of working where you can put things straight into DP?

Very interested to hear from arrangers.

I like concentrating on the lines and orchestration before even thinking about "good sounds".
I will usually start with my synth strings.

Usually I come up with melodies, and then work on the countermelody and the rest of the other voices. For this, I use QS as a reference to see what I'm doing.
Sometimes they write themselves, especially when you pay attention to what your inner hearing tells you. Then it's just a matter of translating what you hear into MIDI notes.

When one gets stuck, a good way to accelerate ideas is to write a basic layout with the basic harmony, with blocks of chords. Then, one can easily embellish all this by inserting passing tones, suspensions, reharmonizing, etc. The point is that a simple set of chords can end up sounding great when sensibly working them out.

Voice leading is extremely important. Basically, you can go from anywhere to anywhere with good voice leading, and it will always sound great. It's all about writing nice lines, nice textures and having contrast.

I agree that worrying about the quality of sounds at this stage is not only futile, but counterproductive, and should be avoided.

I like working with pencil and paper too, but I do it less and less often these days. Maybe it's because I really hate the erasure debris when erasing stuff, and I don't have a good place to rest the paper and pencil in my studio.
But using QS is a very similar process, actually, and usually cleaner, faster and neater. But there's definitely something about writing music by hand that is very satisfying and charming.

[Frodo]

Maybe it's because I really hate the erasure debris when erasing stuff...

Have you ever tried Staedtler Mars plastic erasers?

[FMiguelez]

Maybe it's because I really hate the erasure debris when erasing stuff...

Have you ever tried Staedtler Mars plastic erasers?

No, I have not, but I guess I will try them soon (like next time I go to a stationery store

Thanks for the recommendation, Frodo.

Actually I am using paper and pencil at home, at the piano. I'm revising some piano pieces I did long ago, and I could really use that eraser.

I kinda like writing at the piano, actually. It's like more intimate or something... and the score always looks so much more personal, especially the first drafts (like a hand-written letter as opposed to an email).

[mhschmieder]

Yep, I use both of those erasers, ever since first discovering them (40 years ago for the Staedtler, and probably 15+ years for the Pentel stick eraser, which I have found works better than the other brands that make similar "briefcase-friendly" clickable erasers).

I also use mechanical pencil vs. schoolroom pencils, as I have for many years had trouble dealing with the grating sound and vibration of the latter vs. the former (not to mention they are harder to erase, and less comfortable to hold). I have a 0.5 mm and a 0.7 mm, with a preference for the former (ironically the latter, though larger, breaks off more easily).

[Frodo]

Hey-- not wanting to disrupt the flow of things, but check this out RE: orchestration and workflow:

http://wherestheorchestra.wordpress.com ... teresting/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mjmoody]

Years ago, I remember reading on countless forums that "real composers don't play". I don't know if this was meant as an indirect criticism of a MIDI-first approach limiting the naturalness of a composition in terms of rubato and markings, or whether the point was that this limits us to what we are physically capable of playing ourselves and therefore may result in less interesting compositions.

Long before the days of MIDI, that comment was tossed around by a lot of composers. Its most innocent meaning is that it is important to be able to look at a score and "hear" the notes in your head without having to play them the same way it's important to be able to jot down what you hear in your head without having to sort it all out at the piano or one's instrument of choice.

At its worst, that comment was generally asserted as an insult, but what I've found is that most composers who'd so readily use that comment CAN'T play!

The truth is, real composers DO play: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev, Ravel, Bernstein-- and the list goes on. Did they always sit down at the piano to compose? Probably not. There are times when writing orchestrations can be limited by what the hands can do at the piano. But I think it's unfair to suggest that all composers worth their salt should avoid sorting out the physics of playing their own works without examining the challenges on one instrument or other during the composing process.

I would even suggest to all composers that examining new musical ideas through improvisation is a great way to refine one's "voice". But there's another goof: there are lots of composers who must write everything down because they can't improvise!

If the music passes the "I like it" test - then, I am grateful, whether or not I wrote it at the piano or pencil and paper. I have come to realize that my "hands" can find things that my ear would never come up with. If I like it, I will try to use it. On the other hand, my ear can come up with many ideas my "hands" would never play on a keyboard. Therefore, if I like that, I use it. In either case, I am grateful when a good idea is achieved by either method!

For years I have been writing things into Finale first. I have skipped the pencil and paper idea. But, I can write phrases right into Finale. If I want to get the total "away from the piano" feel, I can turn off the sound in the computer. I would typically only write eight to ten measures without checking it out, anyway. . .