Masterworks Collection arrives . . .

[bongo_x]

It is mysterious why the matserworks gate wasn't included. It's definitely my go to gate. Sounds good, has sidechain and sidechain filters. Oh and it actually works. (looking at you Sonalksis) This and the MWEQ are the main plugins i really miss when I have to use another daw.

It’s funny how people have different impressions of the same thing. I always get the Sonalksis to do what I want and have never got the MW gate to do it. Then again the Sonalksis seems to work like an analog gate, and that’s usually what I want a gate for, otherwise I just edit the piece.

bb

[Armageddon]

Izotope codes Ozone4 in both AU and MAS versions. There are a couple of
other developers that do the same - can't recall which at the moment.

I may have overlooked that when I installed my iZotope plugs -- are they all coded for MAS, or just Ozone 4? I remember not really having a choice when installing Altiverb recently, it just dropped the MAS version in there (which is the version I use with DP, just to be on the safe side), and I don't think Waves offers an MAS shell anymore, though I could be wrong. I do remember the days of Classic, when I would process stuff in DP 3 because the MAS plugs were generally better than VST (the only other native option back then), but I'm pretty happy with UB AU.

How bad would it screw things up if MOTU went completely AU for DP 8? They could make the plugs proprietary, like Cubase or Logic does with theirs ... but would they be able to set it up so you could still open projects with MAS plugs and have either the AU versions replace them or have a "Legacy" folder with all the old MAS plugs in them, should you choose to keep them running? And would switching from MAS to Core Audio only somehow degrade and possibly buggify DP?

[bongo_x]

Izotope codes Ozone4 in both AU and MAS versions. There are a couple of
other developers that do the same - can't recall which at the moment.

I may have overlooked that when I installed my iZotope plugs -- are they all coded for MAS, or just Ozone 4? ...

iDrum is MAS.

bb

[Armageddon]

iDrum is MAS.

Wow, that's right! I gave up on iDrum after 1.0, especially after getting into EZ Drummer (iDrum had some weird stuttering start problem when synced in DP, maybe they've fixed it?), but I can't remember if Spectron, the RX bundle, Trash or Alloy had the MAS option. If they did -- like Ozone 4 -- I'm sure I unchecked everything but AU on their installers.

What's odd is that some plugs won't work if you trash or don't install their VST counterparts. I realize some of them are likely linked that way, especially some RTAS plugs, but I haven't used a VST plug in anything since 9.2.2. I'd like to see some universal synergy for plugs and VIs, which could also cut down on the inherent bugginess of a ported VST or RTAS plug.

[mess]

ALL Izotope plugs have MAS versions. They're one of the few developers that still support the format (UVI does, but well, they also make M5, etc - kind of hard for them to drop the format).

MAS won't be going away any time soon. MAS runs under Core Audio, so DP is already using Core Audio.

Switching all of the plug-ins over to AU? Not too sure they would do that any time soon. The AU spec still doesn't support true ramp automation. Logic and DP get away with it by cranking up the density of the stairstep automation to make it act more ramp like. Also, making sure ALL old projects will still open and all settings will be perfectly in sync? That's a MASSIVE undertaking. Especially considering you would still have to consider old PPC and OS 9 based projects. Waves worked on that one for a long time when they made the move to drop MAS.

[burn em]

It is mysterious why the matserworks gate wasn't included. It's definitely my go to gate. Sounds good, has sidechain and sidechain filters. Oh and it actually works. (looking at you Sonalksis) This and the MWEQ are the main plugins i really miss when I have to use another daw.

It’s funny how people have different impressions of the same thing. I always get the Sonalksis to do what I want and have never got the MW gate to do it. Then again the Sonalksis seems to work like an analog gate, and that’s usually what I want a gate for, otherwise I just edit the piece.

bb

Hey Bongo x. I always used to like the Sonalksis gate, don't get me wrong. It does sound more like a real gate which is sometimes a good thing. (not always a good thing.)

Correct me if I wrong. It has never worked for me since DP5 I think. Might be time to try it again.

[Armageddon]

Switching all of the plug-ins over to AU? Not too sure they would do that any time soon. The AU spec still doesn't support true ramp automation. Logic and DP get away with it by cranking up the density of the stairstep automation to make it act more ramp like. Also, making sure ALL old projects will still open and all settings will be perfectly in sync? That's a MASSIVE undertaking. Especially considering you would still have to consider old PPC and OS 9 based projects. Waves worked on that one for a long time when they made the move to drop MAS.

I don't think most companies are still taking PPC and OS 9-based projects into consideration anymore, and considering that Snow Leopard can only be installed on Intel machines, it's likely that even MOTU is eventually gonna drop PPC (and, especially OS 9, which can't even run most latter-day sequencers, audio programs or plugs) and focus support on UB someday soon. Keeping the back door open like that for people with older machines and operating systems would probably lead to instability, at some point.

[bongo_x]

It is mysterious why the matserworks gate wasn't included. It's definitely my go to gate. Sounds good, has sidechain and sidechain filters. Oh and it actually works. (looking at you Sonalksis) This and the MWEQ are the main plugins i really miss when I have to use another daw.

It’s funny how people have different impressions of the same thing. I always get the Sonalksis to do what I want and have never got the MW gate to do it. Then again the Sonalksis seems to work like an analog gate, and that’s usually what I want a gate for, otherwise I just edit the piece.

bb

Hey Bongo x. I always used to like the Sonalksis gate, don't get me wrong. It does sound more like a real gate which is sometimes a good thing. (not always a good thing.)

Correct me if I wrong. It has never worked for me since DP5 I think. Might be time to try it again.

All the Sonalksis plugs with a sidechain don’t work unless you assign something to the sidechain. It can be anything, I use a Live input or whatever, it doesn’t have to be anything that’s even running.

bb

[michkhol]

How bad would it screw things up if MOTU went completely AU for DP 8? They could make the plugs proprietary, like Cubase or Logic does with theirs ... but would they be able to set it up so you could still open projects with MAS plugs and have either the AU versions replace them or have a "Legacy" folder with all the old MAS plugs in them, should you choose to keep them running? And would switching from MAS to Core Audio only somehow degrade and possibly buggify DP?

If DP drops MAS it will break backward compatibility with older projects. Currently it has the "optimal" in this regard configuration: MAS plugins run "natively" while AU ones run through the MAS wrapper plugin. Other way around is AFAIK impossible because MAS supports more features that AU.

[Armageddon]

If DP drops MAS it will break backward compatibility with older projects. Currently it has the "optimal" in this regard configuration: MAS plugins run "natively" while AU ones run through the MAS wrapper plugin. Other way around is AFAIK impossible because MAS supports more features that AU.

How true is that going to be for how much longer? Eventually, developers will have to refine their AU programming simply because of the advances in Mac's OS and machines. Don't get me wrong; as I discussed in an earlier post, I could absolutely tell the difference between MAS and VST in Classic simply by listening to an MAS plug in DP 3 and the VST version in Vision DSP. Not only was Vision's sound engine (Acadias) vastly inferior, but the VST version of the MAS plug just wasn't capable of the same output. These days, however, I'm hard-pressed to tell the difference between MAS and AU simply by ear. I run Altiverb under MAS mainly because James had suggested a while back that that was the way to go (and it definitely makes sense; Altiverb is one plug you want running as stable as possible), but all of my other third-party plugs run under AU and sound great. I haven't stacked up, say, the stock DP LA-2A emulator plug versus a PSP compressor with an LA-2A setting, but I think the differences are a lot fuzzier than they used to be.

It was always my understanding that MAS was created as a result of MOTU deciding Apple's old-school audio software capabilities and, of course, VST not being quality enough for their programming (though, it seems like every DAW of the time had their own proprietary audio engine). Will they phase out MAS once AU "gets there"? As for being backwards-compatible, they also might decide, at some point, not to think that way. Like I said, Mac's no longer supporting PPC with their new OS's, so MOTU may eventually think in terms of moving forward, figuring that everyone still using MAS will hold on to their older machines and operating systems, thus also holding on to their older versions of DP to run on them. I'm not saying that WILL happen, just suggesting that it COULD happen. It seems like having to create a program that will run on both a quad-core Mac Pro and a G5 may cause unnecessary difficulties.

[michkhol]

How true is that going to be for how much longer? Eventually, developers will have to refine their AU programming simply because of the advances in Mac's OS and machines.

It depends on Apple who controls the AU specs.

Will they phase out MAS once AU "gets there"? As for being backwards-compatible, they also might decide, at some point, not to think that way.

Why? Would you prefer not to be able to open your DP 3 projects anymore? IMHO the difference between professional and recreational software is in ability to support projects from version 1.

Like I said, Mac's no longer supporting PPC with their new OS's, so MOTU may eventually think in terms of moving forward, figuring that everyone still using MAS will hold on to their older machines and operating systems, thus also holding on to their older versions of DP to run on them.

These are totally unrelated. MAS can and does exist on Intel platform. Besides, if MAS was dropped those who hold on to their older machines would hold on to them forever.

[Armageddon]

Why? Would you prefer not to be able to open your DP 3 projects anymore? IMHO the difference between professional and recreational software is in ability to support projects from version 1.

I usually update all my project files to the most recent version, or archive them as MIDI 1 files, if applicable. I never take the fact that projects done in early versions of DP will be supported indefinitely (not to mention, my entire plug-in scheme was switched around anyway when I went from a PPC machine to an Intel machine that doesn't support non-UB plugs and VIs -- some plugs and VIs were actually discontinued altogether, some were change radically, so I've dealt with plenty of plug issues in DP, anyway). As I rarely, if ever, use the stock DP plugs or VIs, my main concern is keeping my third-party AU plugs and VIs up to date. Unfortunately, I have a few audio/MIDI projects that were done in Vision DSP, which is why I also have an incredibly slow iBook in my office that still runs Classic 9.2.2, OMS and, God help us, FreeMIDI, until I can get them (re)mastered and archived as sound files with silences and MIDI 1 output files. Nothing on that machine is supported anymore. But that's my point: you can't assume something won't radically change down the road and cause your favorite software to become something else to change with the times and the technology.

As for DP taking the "professional" route and leaving their backward compatibility open-ended, it may ultimately not be up to them. Like I said, Apple's already killing support for PPC, and if they also refine the AU architecture, MOTU could possibly decide to focus support on Intel machines and Intel-only operating systems, and maybe even decide running AU native is more cost- and processor-effective than running it under an MAS wrapper. If so, where does that leave MAS? Whether it runs on Intel machines or not, it's an audio system contiguous to one program on one operating system, unlike VST, VST3, TDM or RTAS, which share similar programming on multiple platforms and, at least in the case of VST (and UB AU), inside multiple DAWs.

[mike_o]

does anyone really know what features or ability's make MAS better.

I understand the ramp vs stair stepping part but is there anything else that
makes MAS superior?

my only dislike for MAS is that it does not support automap while AU does, automap is so much fun with VI's.

[Tim]

How much?

[Armageddon]

does anyone really know what features or ability's make MAS better.

I understand the ramp vs stair stepping part but is there anything else that
makes MAS superior?

my only dislike for MAS is that it does not support automap while AU does, automap is so much fun with VI's.

If I had to level a criticism at DP at this point, it would definitely be the lack of built-in support for MIDI (over USB or otherwise) control surfaces. I have yet to drill through the programming it's gonna take just to allow me to use the transport controls on my Keystation Pro-88 with DP ... not to mention whatever third-party software I'll have to purchase (MIDI Translator by Bome, I believe) to use the other controls, like the sliders and knobs. And if they have no plans on doing that, they should make my fever dream a reality and start producing their own keyboard controllers/control surfaces. I think a MOTU keyboard controller would be a no-brainer.