Overcomming Aux or Input latency

[waxman]

I have seen the whole aux delay issue on this forum before... so here is my latest hurdle with it...

When using BFD2 multi out to aux tracks if I add any plugs like a UAD 1073 to the snare for some crack it will flam with the other snare out puts. So I called the techs at MOTU and they suggested using audio tracks on input which would be great to avoid the whole aux hassle... but the timing when using audio tracks on input is completely inconsistent...

Any answers for this would be a great help.

[mrbillet]

May or may not help you but what worked for me was to switch Buffer settings. For some reason it kind of reset things and they fell into place. I was able to carry on with my Parallel Compression tests without the horrible phase things happening.

This was running a Demo of T Racks and Amplitube. Both plugins were way off before the Automatic Delay Compensation started working. I don't know about UAD type of hardware.

-Ian

[KEVORKIAN]

I do the same thing with SD2 in a multiout setup and only notice timing issues when adding plugins during playback. Hitting stop and then play again seems to correct the timing.

What is your buffer set to?

[waxman]

I change my buffer at different times... 128 when tracking VIs... I stay at 512 tracking instruments vocals and when cleaning up tracks etc... if running high cpu I go up to 1024 to mixing. MOTU's tech advice did not work to use audio instead of aux tracks in BFD2. The timing was so whacked it just moved around constantly with no consistent change.

The Aux tracks timing is spot on until I start inserting plugs. It does it with any plug it can be waves, TRacks, Nomad, ssl. etc... Logic has horrible problems with BFD2 so DP7 is doing much better so I can't complain too much.

Once the son is written and a draft of the chart is done the recording process begins. I start with a some kind of percussion or drum loop and guide tracks of vocal, guitar or keys. Next step is a drummer on a Roland V drum set and bass. That gets it about 75% there.

In adding the additional parts the drums drums evolve. It would be a pain to print and reprint constantly after editing the MIDI parts triggering BFD2. The way I am getting around it is to use the internal effects in BFD2 which do not cause latency up until the time I print which is one of the last steps before mixing. The work flow of using Aux until printing may just be something I will need to get used to. It's not the end of the world but having 15 aux drum tracks then 15 audio tracks seems redundant. Thank God for track folders!

[KEVORKIAN]

That's weird... I wonder why this would happen with BFD2 and not Superior 2? It seems like a DP issue really since the Aux tracks are involved so I don't see why the latency would be misreported... odd.

[kassonica]

DId you have ANY plugins on the master track?

If so, remove them and see if it helps.

[slotz71]

I have seen the whole aux delay issue on this forum before... so here is my latest hurdle with it...

When using BFD2 multi out to aux tracks if I add any plugs like a UAD 1073 to the snare for some crack it will flam with the other snare out puts. So I called the techs at MOTU and they suggested using audio tracks on input which would be great to avoid the whole aux hassle... but the timing when using audio tracks on input is completely inconsistent...

Any answers for this would be a great help.

Ok, there may be a couple of things going on... If I understand you correctly, you are trying to "mult" the snare sound out of BFD to more than one aux track then adding a UAD plug to one of the aux tracks to blend a more compressed sound with an uncompressed sound of the same snare... If that assumption is wrong, you can ignore the rest of this post...

I don't us BFD but I'm guessing it is capable of similar independent audio path routings that I've seen in other VI's.
Lets say you are routing the snare sound output of BFD to bus 8 then creating 2 aux tracks with bus 8 as their inputs. When you put a plug-in across one of the aux tracks, particularly one that delays the audio as much as the UAD stuff, you will hear a flam. This is because DP cannot compensate for 2 different timing delays from ONE audio path. (please understand that I am making a distinction between an audio path and an audio source. While you can route a single audio source to multiple audio paths, ie. via its track output and sends within the track, I am talking about a single audio path here created between BFD and 2 different Aux tracks, what you need to do is create 2 independent audio paths from the source (BFD) to 2 different aux tracks)
Try this. If this is possible in BFD, duplicate the Snare sound source within BFD, each being triggered from the same MIDI events, and route one to an aux track via bus 7 and the other to an Aux track via bus 8. This will create 2 different audio paths that DP will see and do the appropriate delay compensation for depending on what plug-ins are on each Aux track. NOTE, this will probably NOT work if you just rout the same Snare source sound to a stereo group of bus 7&8. They need to be independent of each other.
This method works form me when I'm mixing but than I am using all audio tracks and no VI's.
Also, you always want to double check that there are no other aux tracks or audio tracks that have their inputs set to the same bus.
9 times out of 10 when I have a delay compensation issue it's because I've just created a new track and whatever input DP assigned to it was being used by something else I had set up and it screwed up the delay compensation. So I alway make sure that all my track inputs are set to "none" unless I'm actively recording on them or I am routing audio to a aux track via a bus...

I hope this helps.

[mhschmieder]

I only use stereo outs and do my mixing in DP, usually tracking one kit piece at a time, but I do seem to remember seeing this issue with multi outs coming up before... you might want to check the fxpansion forum.

I'll print this out though and see if anything rings a bell when I can study it in more depth. I had planned to revisit the question of whether to do my drum mixing inside BFD vs. DP very soon anyway, so chances are that I may come across your issue in the next few days as I try out various ways of making use of BFD's mix engine and multiple outputs.

[conleycd]

I don't necessarily wish to point out the obvious - or perhaps I've missed the point - but... DP needs you to stop and restart for ADC to work.

If you are in the midst of play back, and you put a plugin on that adds latency - you need to stop and restart (quick hit of the space bar does the trick). Otherwise, the plug doesn't report it's latency to DP.

I believe DP's engine is ADC throughout (busses to auxes). It used to not be on auxs or busses - I can't remember which.

CC

[waxman]

Thanks for some suggestions...

Rather then quote here is a clarification. I did not add the plug while in play. I did stop DP so it can get the ADC together... I just got back in the habit of adding plugs while in play. In DP6 that used create havoc... DP7 you can pretty much jerk things around...

Mults... I am not using any mults... All BFD2 outputs are on separate buss outs. Kick in, kick out, Snare top, snare bottom ect... add a plug get a flam... any plug. It has nothing to do with UAD. DP does the same with waves, motu, IKmultmedia, Nomad or any processor plug.

Superior drummer on different outs is not doing the same thing??? I am using 8 Mono and 5 stereo outs with BFD2. Are we suggesting the Aux tracks go back to the plug and delay the plug? If that is the case the whole thing would be late but it is only where I add a plug to the track. Why would it delay only the aux with a plug? And the audio goes right in the tank when you use audio tracks instead of aux buss.

So I am over it. I just gotta do the work in aux tracks and then set up audio tracks. It's no biggie. I just can't really finish the drum mix until I print. Then double check the FX settings internally on BFD2. Just a bit of book work. I just would like to do all my processing, print without the FX and move the plugs from the aux to the printed audio channels. Sometimes the comps and plugs change the sound so that if you did some things like dampen in BFD2 it would help. I wish it would work liek that... But I would like a Bentley also... so while I'm wish'n... maybe mDave will get in on this one...

[Tim]

I do this all the time with BFD2, and have no problems.

If you want to send me a seq file (w/o track data/audio), or even screen shots showing all routing, I'd like to see what the problem might be.

[waxman]

Tim thanks I will get that to you. Holidays put a crimp on things.

[newrigel]

I just use multiple instances and only put the instrument I want in each (like a snare only not the whole kit, or a kick only etc.) and then just buss to my SSL comps for parallel compression or if needed I can put a UAD plug on the instrument channel itself but I gave up on all that buss assignment stuff... it was too shady and so now I just set everything up as a template and name it accordingly then these types of issues are a thing of the past and I can move on to make some music. I use my auxiliaries for verbs, delays, and dynamic stems and just buss to them for whatever... the bussing from VI's is a mess. Just keep it simple. You can have just as much routing possibilities just using multiple instances of the same VI... you have an 8 core machine so you have the cycles there and drum VI's are pretty light on the DSP so.

[mhschmieder]

I agree. Too many differences, just as with mono instances, so it's simplest to use standard single-stereo-bus-pair VI's across-the-board. It's less to learn, less to go wrong, future-proof, and makes it easier to swap sounds without restructuring an entire project or plug-in.

[newrigel]

I agree. Too many differences, just as with mono instances, so it's simplest to use standard single-stereo-bus-pair VI's across-the-board. It's less to learn, less to go wrong, future-proof, and makes it easier to swap sounds without restructuring an entire project or plug-in.

I could see all the assignments if I was using Pro Tools with a limited track count but DP is unlimited so you got that thing covered.
You've got 8 cores there, this technique wouldn't even phase it. Most drum VI's are really good on the DSP and each instance only has the sample for that track so it makes sense. I run a stereo instance with the whole kit so I can audition the MIDI hooks before I drag them in the sequence. SD has the MIDI parts in 2.2 that are separate individual MIDI tracks and I just drag each into it's corresponding MIDI track then mute all the sounds in the plug so I can use the bleed samples (OH and room) only without the actual drum samples... really fast and don't have to deal with the BS. EZ drummer is a headache too but whatever you like doing.