Finale 2010 announced

[Phil O]

Ah, screw it. I broke down and ordered the update. I'm such a sucker for new toys.

Phil

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Ah, screw it. I broke down and ordered the update. I'm such a sucker for new toys.

Phil

My copy should be here today. We can commiserate.

[djc]

Any word from MLC, Frodo, and the rest with how 2010 is working? I have been a very long time user of Finale and have loved it for most of that time as it seemed I could figure out how to make it do about anything notation-wise. However, as the yearly versions keep coming out, I become more PO at Finale as it seems to be getting worse with each new version. Most of these problems have been addressed many times in this and other forums. My main gripes are 1) the program is less stable and less predictable when it does screw up making work-arounds harder to figure out 2) the new features don't seem to work all the time and often not as promised in the promo (GPO & Kontakt 2 for one example), and 3) user support is less friendly and less informed - I often feel I know way more about the program (and music notation in general) than the person on the other end of the line.

So, do any of you use Sibelius or Notation or any other notation program that can handle complex notation and, if so, can you make a comparison to Finale?

Many thanks for any suggestions.

[Frodo]

Any word from MLC, Frodo, and the rest with how 2010 is working?

I'm holding off on 2010 because so few of Finale's updates have actually worked properly. 2005, 2007 and 2008 were all disasters for me. 2009 seems to be a usable version for me, although I still struggle with parts extraction--- a little cumbersome. I've kept 2006 for that reason-- it has worked on 4 different machines, although I sense that on my MacPro it's running in emulation mode (slow booting, no recent file log). Other than that, it's just as fast as 2009.

I have been a very long time user of Finale and have loved it for most of that time as it seemed I could figure out how to make it do about anything notation-wise. However, as the yearly versions keep coming out, I become more PO at Finale as it seems to be getting worse with each new version. Most of these problems have been addressed many times in this and other forums. My main gripes are 1) the program is less stable and less predictable when it does screw up making work-arounds harder to figure out 2) the new features don't seem to work all the time and often not as promised in the promo (GPO & Kontakt 2 for one example), and 3) user support is less friendly and less informed - I often feel I know way more about the program (and music notation in general) than the person on the other end of the line.

I think I gave up on all VIs except for Smart Synth/GM for simple playback. I find most of the MIDI and AU functionality secondary to just getting a great score typeset. I've removed GPO and NI stuff completely and found that what I need from Finale works better. I will say that I have not tried the latest versions of Kontakt, but I probably wouldn't use it in Finale. I've spent a lot of time in DAW world that I don't rely on Finale for MIDI any more than I rely on DP for notation. I've kept the two concepts separate and have been all the happier because of it.

So, do any of you use Sibelius or Notation or any other notation program that can handle complex notation and, if so, can you make a comparison to Finale?

Many thanks for any suggestions.

I tried Sibelius a while ago and only got so far with it. That's probably not fair to Sibelius, but Finale users appear to be split on it-- some love it while others have found it to be uncomfortable to use.

Several reviews have cited that if you are a Finale user there's no real reason to switch unless you are working with others who use Sibelius and compatibility with colleages is at issue. The reviews go on to say that if you don't have either and want to choose between the two that Sibelius is probably a wiser place to start. Switching workflow from one app to another is highly personal-- sometimes it just clicks, sometimes it doesn't.

There are others who've recommended other notation apps, but I think if you are considering leaving Finale behind it's best to go to a music store that has these other apps installed to try them out-- or to sit for an hour with a friend (if possible) who has one of the other apps. There's nothing like getting your hands on them to see how well they fit.

Not sure which have free demos, but those are always worth trying if they are available.

[djc]

Thanks for the info Frodo. I too agree that 09 seems to be the best of the most recent versions. As for the parts extraction, I have similar problems. Usually end up making at least 2 scores-one for the conductor/master score and one for parts extraction. Finale doesn't seem to deal with a2 and the like very well and hiding extra staves can be a pain when formating. I have found the TG plug "Process Extracted Parts" helpful when creating the parts score.

I also make a 3rd "playing" score if I need to submit a "recording" of a piece. I have used Kontakt, Aria, Smartsynth but find the playback features to be a lot of trouble to get even a moderately accurate rendition. When you say that you use DP for MIDI, do you extract a MIDI file and then open in DP? What VIs do you use? I use Finale for my "legit" stuff that ranges from solo pieces to quartets to orchestra. (Doing a WE piece right now.) I checked out the Bidule videos which are very impressive, but that seems more for folks who need to create a finished product rather than a reference sound file for live performers.

Good suggestions about trying the other programs though I would hate to have to relearn all my Finale key board shortcuts again!

Thanks again.

[Frodo]

Thanks for the info Frodo. I too agree that 09 seems to be the best of the most recent versions. As for the parts extraction, I have similar problems. Usually end up making at least 2 scores-one for the conductor/master score and one for parts extraction. Finale doesn't seem to deal with a2 and the like very well and hiding extra staves can be a pain when formating. I have found the TG plug "Process Extracted Parts" helpful when creating the parts score.

I need to take a look at that TG plugin. Thanks for reminding me!

So odd-- all of my work in the past month has been using v 2006 which is why it never crossed my mind. But I also have to wonder about any application that relies so heavily on third-party plugins for the simplest of tasks. Assigning personal shortcuts-- or not being able to do so easily or cheaply-- has always puzzled me.

Tremolos. Wow. Seems so basic and yet without Easy Tremolos, I'd be totally lost with the way Finale reverts such entries manually.

I also make a 3rd "playing" score if I need to submit a "recording" of a piece. I have used Kontakt, Aria, Smartsynth but find the playback features to be a lot of trouble to get even a moderately accurate rendition. When you say that you use DP for MIDI, do you extract a MIDI file and then open in DP? What VIs do you use? I use Finale for my "legit" stuff that ranges from solo pieces to quartets to orchestra. (Doing a WE piece right now.) I checked out the Bidule videos which are very impressive, but that seems more for folks who need to create a finished product rather than a reference sound file for live performers.

Indeed-- I also find it necessary to make several versions of the score for different purposes, although I've stopped doing a2 off the bat in favor of separate staves for the sake of extracting parts neatly. (So many mistakes tend to crop up otherwise-- user and software related. Ugh.)

I will do an official "conductor's score" after the fact just to allow for somewhat larger staff sizes and greater legibility with the a2 approach. But because I also start entering large amounts of note data into DP and then port that info into Finale, I already have a head start for an audio mock up in DP without having to port in and filter out all of the extraneous MIDI data which has interfered with DP's treatment of Finale-based SMFs in the past on my system. I know others have found ways around this and many avoid using DP as part of the process. Since I've been able to get a grip on Finale's import quantizing features, doing large orchestral scores just go much faster for me for some reason.

Good suggestions about trying the other programs though I would hate to have to relearn all my Finale key board shortcuts again!

Thanks again.

My pleasure, djc!

I haven't scoured the threads in this forum in a while, but I know there were a number of threads which spoke of others' experiences with different apps. Some of that info was buried inside threads bearing topics seemingly unrelated. When I get a moment I'll do a little snooping around for more info for you.

With that said, I'm going to be picking at MLC and Phil O for their trusted takes on how 2010 works. The only thing that seems attractive for me are the alleged percussion/drum staff enhancements. Percussion and harp parts currently take longer than it does to do all of the rest of the score! This is partially due to their unique notation which rarely translate from DP accurately. For as long as these parts take to do from scratch, it's a lot faster than editing a crazy-looking import.

One of these days, this will all get a lot easier. I just hope I'm still around to enjoy it!

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I haven't had any problems with F2010 yet, but as you know, Frodo, I am working on a piano & violin piece which poses not real challenge in terms of notation (at least not as challenging as a med. to large ensemble work would.)

One oddity was with a layer issue. Layer 1 was entered into a staff (LH piano) and I added layer 2. As soon as I did my stem directions (which I manually reversed to make room for the part) reverted to the original direction and had to be re-reversed. Rather annoying. I probably should have used voice 2 (not layer 2) but it still shouldn't happen. Maybe a pref that needs to be set in the file options?

I've also been messing with Simple Entry instead of Speedy Entry as Make-U-sick seems to be pushing that. But as always, I found simple entry to be akin to working in Sibelius. USELESS! Also played with my Wacom tablet and that was also a mistake. Not at all like writing with paper and pen. Impresses people who see it, but from a functional standpoint, not advised. Frankly, I would love it if it really worked like that - where you could actually just write the notes and they would translate to to the proper values based on what you scribbled. I don't doubt that will be possible someday, but I'll be long dead by then, I suspect.

Other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln? BTW, my Mac Mini (atop my Yamaha grand) does not like Garritan and will not playback the score. Not a big deal as I don't need it to. But the G5 does playback fine so I'm not sure what the issue is.

[Frodo]

I haven't had any problems with F2010 yet, but as you know, Frodo, I am working on a piano & violin piece which poses not real challenge in terms of notation (at least not as challenging as a med. to large ensemble work would.)

Oh, were life so blissfully simple in the shire!

One oddity was with a layer issue. Layer 1 was entered into a staff (LH piano) and I added layer 2. As soon as I did my stem directions (which I manually reversed to make room for the part) reverted to the original direction and had to be re-reversed. Rather annoying. I probably should have used voice 2 (not layer 2) but it still shouldn't happen. Maybe a pref that needs to be set in the file options?

If I understand you correctly, it reminds me of something I dealt with in earlier versions of Finale. I've just resigned myself to getting all the notes into the desired layers first before making any custom edits. Finale will fight you on the defaults if you're not careful. Most of the time, once Layer 1 is in, just activating Layer 2 appears to make most (or all) desired stem direction changes.

Now-- with that said, I should confess that I'm not writing any piano parts and am dealing with one line/voice per staff for the most part. The last time I did a complex piano score, there weren't enough flapjacks in the world to ease the pain!

I've also been messing with Simple Entry instead of Speedy Entry as Make-U-sick seems to be pushing that.

Wasn't it you who told me that Sir Speedy was being phased out?

But as always, I found simple entry to be akin to working in Sibelius. USELESS!

Aha. Could this be a case of them buckling to pressure of users asking "why can't Finale be more like Sibelius?" Frankly, I hang onto 2006d because there are features there I really like that have disappeared in 2009. Still getting used to it.

There are one or two bits of silliness about which I'd like to inquire:

1. The linked parts window-- I wish that I could expand that window to see all the parts represented in the score at once. Seems silly to have to scroll up and down constantly to view only 5-6 staves at a time in a score of 30+. It's not like the window takes up much screen space, but maybe Finale wasn't intended to navigate large orchestral scores--- oh, wait....

2. Again-- linked parts window. You set up your own template or use a default. At some point you insert a staff at a specific location, but the newly inserted staves appear out of order in the linked parts window-- most often at the very bottom. So that piccolo part you added to the two flutes at the top of the actual score resides beneath the contrabasses. Hmm.

Being able to move the newly added part from the bottom of the list to its proper location (akin to Setup Wizard arrows) would be a nice gesture.

Have either of these two issues been addressed in 2010?

Also played with my Wacom tablet and that was also a mistake. Not at all like writing with paper and pen. Impresses people who see it, but from a functional standpoint, not advised. Frankly, I would love it if it really worked like that - where you could actually just write the notes and they would translate to to the proper values based on what you scribbled. I don't doubt that will be possible someday, but I'll be long dead by then, I suspect.

Wacom tablet. Now, THERE'S and idea! It also makes me wonder how/if/when something like Finale would/could work with a touch screen. I've seen people do some pretty impressive navigation on an iPhone. I've even grown to like my Google phone's touch screen since they've updated the system software-- works much better now.

Other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?

"Thank you for asking," she replied. "It gave my husband a terrible headache."

[Phil O]

...With that said, I'm going to be picking at MLC and Phil O for their trusted takes on how 2010 works...

Mine hasn't arrived yet, but even when it does, I'm so busy for the next two weeks that I won't have time to play with it much. I guess it's all up to MLC to test this baby out! Umm, no pressure.

Phil

[MIDI Life Crisis]

...With that said, I'm going to be picking at MLC and Phil O for their trusted takes on how 2010 works...

Mine hasn't arrived yet, but even when it does, I'm so busy for the next two weeks that I won't have time to play with it much. I guess it's all up to MLC to test this baby out! Umm, no pressure.

Phil

I'll certainly check out any specific requests such as Frodo has outlined. BTW, finding a piccolo under the contrabasses? Maybe you pushed the button marked:

I'm a contra; He's a Contra; Wouldn't you like to be a Contra, too?"

<groan>

[Frodo]

There was something else, too, that I have to figure out. Occasionally, I'll discover a batch of empty staves appearing at the bottom of the score and I don't know what causes it because I've never been looking at the bottom of the score whenever it happens. I'm sure there's a preference somewhere for this, but deleting the staves hasn't been a problem.

[djc]

There was something else, too, that I have to figure out. Occasionally, I'll discover a batch of empty staves appearing at the bottom of the score and I don't know what causes it because I've never been looking at the bottom of the score whenever it happens. I'm sure there's a preference somewhere for this, but deleting the staves hasn't been a problem.

2. Again-- linked parts window. You set up your own template or use a default. At some point you insert a staff at a specific location, but the newly inserted staves appear out of order in the linked parts window-- most often at the very bottom. So that piccolo part you added to the two flutes at the top of the actual score resides beneath the contrabasses. Hmm.

I have similar problems. I think this is because Finale handles staves in the order they are added to the score. That picc will always be "staff #31" no matter where you put it or what you rename it. I find this same thing occurring when I add a staff to a group which Finale doesn't seem to like very much. Even if I ungroup some staves and then regroup I get all kind of problems (like the old group name appearing in some views but not others, etc.) Sometimes it takes 2 or 3 tries before the program believes I really want to do this.

My suspicion is that, despite all the bells & whistles, Finale still thinks of itself as a replacement for the old ink and vellum days (ah, the memories!) when one wrote out a score after having decided where everything was going.

One oddity was with a layer issue. Layer 1 was entered into a staff (LH piano) and I added layer 2. As soon as I did my stem directions (which I manually reversed to make room for the part) reverted to the original direction and had to be re-reversed. Rather annoying. I probably should have used voice 2 (not layer 2) but it still shouldn't happen. Maybe a pref that needs to be set in the file options?

Never been able to make voices work for squat. I use layers a lot but have MLC's problems from time to time. I can usually get Finale to accept reversed stems if I click out of Speedy and then back into it though sometimes (why I don't know) have to manually change them. My main beef is with slurs with multiple layers. They frequently get stuck in the wrong direction and the Smt Shp dialogue will not unstick them. I just have to remove the offending slur(s) and re-enter them. Might have something to do with where I click to enter the slur.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Been working in F2010 for a few days now and reverted to my traditional entry method of Speedy Entry and a MIDI keyboard. That works fine but I am also noticing that the program seems to be running - how can I put this? - very smoothly. There seems to be a sense of ease and softness in F2010 that I cannot really explain.

It might simply be the transparent handles (a new feature and very nice, btw). Perhaps just a perception rather than an actual change in the program. And it may be the Mac OS, although no other programs "feel" different. Finale definitely does to me.

Also used voices 1 & 2 instead of layers. That works great for the most part but cross staves are actually the best way to go. Finale gets confused by voices in the Speedy Entry tool, especially when trying to add a tie across measures. It always wants to add it to v1 regardless of which voice is active.

[Frodo]

Good to hear that 2010 is running smoothly. I don't really feel any bumps in 2009 at all-- am working on something now, in fact.

It's just those little issues--Layers vs Voices-- then issues with cross staves. Linked instead of Extract, then issues with staff and group order.

Clearly, the emphasis has been strong on the Cocoa side, but perhaps some of these other issues will get sorted out-- with 2011 (????).

My suspicion is that, despite all the bells & whistles, Finale still thinks of itself as a replacement for the old ink and vellum days (ah, the memories!) when one wrote out a score after having decided where everything was going.

OMG. Indeed, the memories-- especially the ones I tried hard to forget!! I certainly don't miss the geek-fights about ink viscosity, nib filing-- and having to start pages over from scratch because of some silly mistake--- let alone trying to find some skin-friendly hand soap that makes the ink go away.

But again, I think someone will have to rethink a few things in Finale because it doesn't make sense to keep adding features which are not entirely compatible with the editors.