Why are clients so out of touch with reality? Unbelievable..

[James Steele]

Man... I finally got around to reading this thread. Great stuff. Michael, I'll move it over to the Composing section if you want.

I have to say this really hits home for me. I dealt with a client a while back that was difficult. Late payers... always grinding me on my rate... etc. Long story short, someone in a particular producer's office lied about a phone conversation I had with them to cover a mistake they made that ended up costing them money, and as a result, this producer essentially called my honesty and integrity into question. I had NEVER had that happen before, and in a fit of righteous indignation, I told them they should just remove me from their vendor list and I'd rather not work with someone who would call me a liar.

A year or so later, I'm in a slow patch right now and thinking about how much work I probably would still be getting if I didn't let them press my buttons and just shrug it off. I am annoyed though that some snot-nosed PA who lied to cover their ass, but it's probably typical human behavior. I lost my temper and I regret it.

[bongo_x]

... I personally am not a professional but I don't think it is ethical or legal to use other people's soundtracks without their permission in any capacity...

That's just silly. Whether it is a good idea or not is another question.

He was simply sending them some music and asking "do you like this?". What is unethical or illegal about that? What if he had just sent the names of examples of the other music and asked if that was the right idea? What if you were writing a song with someone and said "I want it to sound sort of like Radiohead" and sent a song to them?

People are getting really ridiculous, buying into this copyright propaganda. Pretty soon it will be immoral to listen to someone else's music. Don't even talk about it.

bb

[dmacintyre]

... I personally am not a professional but I don't think it is ethical or legal to use other people's soundtracks without their permission in any capacity...

That's just silly. Whether it is a good idea or not is another question.

He was simply sending them some music and asking "do you like this?". What is unethical or illegal about that? What if he had just sent the names of examples of the other music and asked if that was the right idea? What if you were writing a song with someone and said "I want it to sound sort of like Radiohead" and sent a song to them?

People are getting really ridiculous, buying into this copyright propaganda. Pretty soon it will be immoral to listen to someone else's music. Don't even talk about it.

bb

He's a professional composer who was sending a prospective client an example score comprised of someone else's work without making it clear what it was. If you can't see the potential for conflict of interest there.......

There is no problem around suggesting / requesting a similar feel to other soundtracks or artists when it is an open discussion and everyone knows the score (pun intended). But he posted a derisory rant about the prospective client's ignorance of the process from only his own perspective and seemed to get angry very quickly which are my primary issues with the situation.

David

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Man... I finally got around to reading this thread. Great stuff. Michael, I'll move it over to the Composing section if you want.

Cool, hip, wow, man! Thanks.

[FMiguelez]

... I personally am not a professional but I don't think it is ethical or legal to use other people's soundtracks without their permission in any capacity...

That's just silly. Whether it is a good idea or not is another question.

He was simply sending them some music and asking "do you like this?". What is unethical or illegal about that? What if he had just sent the names of examples of the other music and asked if that was the right idea? What if you were writing a song with someone and said "I want it to sound sort of like Radiohead" and sent a song to them?

People are getting really ridiculous, buying into this copyright propaganda. Pretty soon it will be immoral to listen to someone else's music. Don't even talk about it.

bb

He's a professional composer who was sending a prospective client an example score comprised of someone else's work without making it clear what it was. If you can't see the potential for conflict of interest there.......



David

I admit I lost it very quickly (I explained why already).

But also, I always thought that calling things by their names was being clear enough. Naturally I assumed he knew what a temp score was. After all, he kept boasting about what a big time producer he was and how much he knew...
Anyway. I learnt my lesson. This wont' happen in the future anymore.


BTW:
Why do you keep questioning the ethics of using a Temp Score? It is totally common practice. Let me say that again: TOP PROS do it, music editors do it ALL THE TIME. Part of their job is to prepare these things for directors, etc. These TT can be made using ANY composer's work.

Believe me, my friend. Back in the College days, I won an Internship for the whole summer in one of LA's top Music Editing firms, and all the music editors worked like this. Composers didn't seem to mind them doing this with their music either... I suppose they take it as free marketing... They are not affected in the LEAST.
In College, I took all these music editing classes. Can you guess what the assignments were, and what the final portfolio was about?

Since I am a 2 man operation in my studio (my assistant and I), I have to wear many hats. Sometimes a Composer, sometimes a music editor, sometimes a consultant, etc. Even sound design... but that's something I'm not good at, and rather not do it myself. Anyway... When I have to wear the music editor hat, is just to get initial reactions from the production teams, and just to get a ballpark starting point.

And I'd rather have a director tell me: "do something in the style of X piece of music, giving me X emotion(s)", rather than "I want something ethereal with taints of red".

[FMiguelez]

Perhaps you might also think of like this, FMig:

Cream rises; $hit floats. Both can be at the top at the same time.

Being selective is important, staying afloat is essential!

Watch out for that log!

That sounds funny. Yet, at the same time, it is so true!

Watch out for that sheisse log!

[FMiguelez]

Like I questioned before : do they use examples of their own music or someone else's? Again, I'd find it hard to believe that a "top pro" uses someone else's music. I am not questioning the ethics of a temp score, just the source you used....

Are you actually READING what I write?
Music editors are not composers. How can they use their own music?
So are you saying I'm lying? I don't really care if you believe it or not. It is done. My source was my eyes.

You don't have to believe ME. It's all in the textbooks. "On the Track" has a good chapter about Temp Scores, Music Editors, etc.

That was not screaming, by the way. I just wanted to call your attention to make sure you read what followed. Looks like it didn't work

Like I wrote, I have to wear many hats. Composer is the one I enjoy and do the most. But sometimes I also must wear the music editing hat, along with all the aspects that it involves, that's all.

[FMiguelez]

.


SORRY ABOUT THAT!!!!!

I accidentally deleted your last post. I was trying to delete MY last one.

Please re-post again (hope you remember what you wrote). I did quote most of your message in mine, though.

I'm so sorry about this

I'm seeing if I see an "undo" function, or something. Perhaps you can copy from my quote and paste in your response? That way most of it would be restored.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

.


SORRY ABOUT THAT!!!!!

I accidentally deleted your last post. I was trying to delete MY last one.

Please re-post again (hope you remember what you wrote). I did quote most of your message in mine, though.

I'm so sorry about this

I'm seeing if I see an "undo" function, or something. Perhaps you can copy from my quote and paste in your response? That way most of it would be restored.

I can attest to the fact that things like that happen when a composer is asked to moderate. See a button; push a button.

But isn't that what this thread is all about?

[FMiguelez]

.


SORRY ABOUT THAT!!!!!

I accidentally deleted your last post. I was trying to delete MY last one.

Please re-post again (hope you remember what you wrote). I did quote most of your message in mine, though.

I'm so sorry about this

I'm seeing if I see an "undo" function, or something. Perhaps you can copy from my quote and paste in your response? That way most of it would be restored.

I can attest to the fact that things like that happen when a composer is asked to moderate. See a button; push a button.

But isn't that what this thread is all about?

I sent him a PM alerting him about this. I think we can restore it (from my quote on him and from memory). It wasn't too long.

I apologize for this

[dmacintyre]

Please re-post again (hope you remember what you wrote).

There's no point.

[FMiguelez]

.

Ok. Whatever.

I just wanted to make sure you knew about my stupidity (of accidentally deleting your post), and that we could restore your post as if nothing had happened.

If you don't want to continue participating in this discussion that's ok. I want to make sure this didn't look as if I deleted you on purpose, or anything.

Hopefully you will see for yourself about this aspect of music editing and temp tracks. I already gave you a good reference to read, if you are interested.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I think the key words here are:

EDITOR

COMPOSER

MUSIC SUPERVISOR

DIRECTOR

TEMP TRACK

By their nature, editors don't make music and it helps them if they can cut to a rhythm. Their role is NOT to select music for the project. Sometimes their selections are quite good, but they are based on the editors taste much of the time, and not necessarily on any esthetic or artistic direction the film should take. Other times, editors feel they can take control of artistic direction, and some try very hard to do this. This is a bad thing and composers must guard against this at every turn.

Composers OTOH, are responsible for making music and the direction the score takes. It is also part of a good composers job to find ways to illuminate things in the story that might otherwise be missed by the casual viewer, or to emphasize the director's intention in a particular scene. This applies to film, theater, dance, opera, sound installations, and pretty much everywhere music plays a role in telling a story.


Music Supervisors have a wide role in the process of the soundtrack, and might suggest a temp score or a specific piece or song for a film. That role is also a much more important one to the production in a lot of other ways as well. A music supervisor might actually compose music for a scene, conduct an orchestra, research music and even defend an infringement action (as either an expert witness, a plain old witness or a party to an action.)

A director is basically the guy in charge. He may or may not answer to a producer and he may also be a producer, but what he says goes. PERIOD. If he wants happy music under a murder, you write happy music under a murder. It is HIS film. Good directors generally listen to collaborators and hire people who's judgment they trust. That's why they hired them in the first place. And while good directors listen to collaborators, it is never a good idea to force your views too strongly on a director. Make your case, but defer to his or her decision. Again, it is HIS film. If this is too much for you to take, you are in the wrong business.

The temp track can come from many sources. Sometimes a suggestion from the editor or music supervisor, their girlfriends, mailman, gas station attendant or waitress. Other times the director's taste is what determines what the temp track is. But in all cases, the temp track should be viewed as a temporary soundtrack that provides one perspective of what the music might be - not what it will be or should be.

Again, a good composer will bring something to the production that others might never consider. A high degree of originality is the best thing a composer can bring, as long as it serves the story and the director's vision. Maybe the director had never thought of a scene the way the composer did. That is the composer's job (IMO).

Unfortunately, there are not as many original thinkers making music for film as you might think. Certainly there are a lot of very talented musicians out there and many are creating highly original and effective scores. There are also many more who are trying to be the next Williams, Howard, Newman (pick one!) or Elfman - and if that's what they want, that's their choice. I'd much rather write original music in obscurity than try to grab on some guys coattails and chase his farts the rest of my life. But that's just me.

The issue here (in this thread) seems to be whether it is "valid" for a composer to create a temp track of other people's music (BTW, I know FMMig didn't intend for the tracks to be considered his music - but that is not the issue).

Let me put it another way, would a director pitch an idea to a producer by showing him "Psycho" and saying: DO you want me to direct like this?

Should an editor show a director "Young Frankenstein" and say: Do you want me to edit like this?

Should an actor show a casting director "On the Waterfront" and say: Do you want me to act like this?

And a composer should NEVER provide music and say: Do you want me to write like this?

What you SHOULD do (and go ahead, tell me I'm pontificating!) what you MUST do is provide samples of YOUR music and say: I write like this.

Anything else and you are essentially saying: "I have no identity as a composer and I can be whatever you want me to be" - basically, making you a musical prostitute. That is not to say you shouldn't write competently in many styles - that is something I pride myself on and what I think competent composers do. OTOH, I also don't go thru my CD collection and piece together the best of the best and say: "I can do this for you" because I probably won't. Not that I can't; but I won't. When I am in the process, what comes out of me is MY music , my perspective and hopefully my spirit. If that works for the production, great. And while I don't think it is illegal or even unethical for a composer to provide a temp track from other people's music, I do think it is the worst thing you can do in terms of presenting yourself AS A COMPOSER.

[FMiguelez]

.

What you SHOULD do (and go ahead, tell me I'm pontificating!) what you MUST do is provide samples of YOUR music and say: I write like this.

I always try to do that... when I can. For this particular project I just didn't have anything from my catalog that would fit nicely.

But hopefully that will change soon! (little by little my catalog will grow).

I agree with what you wrote about composers doing temp tracks. But sometimes is better to do it yourself instead of having someone else do it for you (with THEIR views of the score)... that way you can have some control at the early stages of the sound of the score you will write later.

OF COURSE it's better when you use your own music for this purpose... as long as you HAVE written that music already.


I don't think you are pontificating, BTW. I'm glad we're having this discussion.

.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

...But sometimes is better to do it yourself instead of having someone else do it for you...

NO NO NO NO NO and NO! NEVER! Write something if you don't have something already done. Learn to write FAST! Anything else is certain death! Besides, you don't have to notate it, just sequence it. Again, 6 minutes of sequenced music shouldn't take too long for an audition piece. Certainly doable in less than a day for a quick sketch. Do a piano score if you must, but ALWAYS use your own music as a composer. Let someone else do a temp track; that is NOT what directors are looking for when you come to them, They are looking for a COMPOSER. No excuses; no rationale. NEVER MAKE A TEMP TRACK LIKE THAT AGAIN! EVER! Say it with me:

I WILL NEVER MAKE A TEMP TRACK LIKE THAT AGAIN! EVER!

Good. Now how about them Lakers