Why are clients so out of touch with reality? Unbelievable..

[MIDI Life Crisis]

.

Thank you for your responses.

AArrrgh!! I won't have to time to respond now. I have to go now to a meeting. I'll talk to you more about this.

I think I didn't put things in the right context... But don't get the idea I'm always like this... No way!

I'm looking forward to discuss the temp track issues. At night, when I arrive, I'll log in to talk to you guys.

Later

I'll ask James to move the thread if that's OK...

[MIDI Life Crisis]

If I personally am not a professional...

Is that why you list Logic before DP in your sig?

Couldn't resist... Cheap shot, but I'm only kidding and DP 6 depraved (my new excuse this week...)

Anyway, I obviously agree with you. I don't think it is necessarily "illegal" to use CDs for a temp track but since I don't do that, it doesn't matter to me if it's legal or not. You're not distributing or selling it, just using your personal library and playing it back in timed relation to a picture. If it stays in your studio, I don't see that anyone who have any legal standing to sue.

HOWEVER... if you score a temp track as a composer and someone uses your music as the temp track but later replaces it with another composer's work, it IS illegal to not pay the first (temp track) composer for their work. I know, I've had this happen to me. I didn't get paid and I didn't sue. For one, the director was my cousin. Second, I don't go around suing people for non-criminal acts, contrary to what you might read otherwise - (I give no quarter to infringers who are making a profit from my work).

But most importantly, THE MOVIE SUCKED! The editing was great. It was all done to my score and the new composer had to score it to the rhythms I set up. The reason I lost the film had nothing to do with the quality of my work, and everything to do with bonding company agreements (the film was very late) , inept staffing in the production office and retaliation against my cousin, who lost his producer credit and everyone he had hired was subsequently fired from post.

In the end, the movie didn't make a lot of money and sometimes makes it on to the "Monster Channel" on satellite networks. But ultimately, I'd rather not be associated with the title or the history of a production like that.

[dmacintyre]

If I personally am not a professional...

Is that why you list Logic before DP in your sig?

Actually, I just sold Logic in anticipation of DP6 release. Uninstalled and posted it yesterday. So out the sig it comes.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

If I personally am not a professional...

Is that why you list Logic before DP in your sig?

Actually, I just sold Logic in anticipation of DP6 release. Uninstalled and posted it yesterday. So out the sig it comes.

So maybe we should have people include whether or not they have the DP manual in their sigs as well?

Hope you made your $$$ back on Logic.

[rcannonp]

So maybe we should have people include whether or not they have the DP manual in their sigs as well?

Where's the sport in that?

[kassonica]

So maybe we should have people include whether or not they have the DP manual in their sigs as well?

Where's the sport in that?

That so funny

We are the sporting types around here too.

[FMiguelez]

.

If that was a verbatim account of the telephone call complete with dynamics I think you are completely in the wrong. I personally am not a professional but I don't think it is ethical or legal to use other people's soundtracks without their permission in any capacity. You obviously didn't inform the prospective client that it was a cut and paste of someone else's work so effectively were not clear about who's work it was. I'm not saying that you were attempting to pass it off as yours but to the client that's exactly how it might appear.

I think you are taking out of context my story.

First, I DID inform the producer it was a Temp Score. It's not my fault he is not familiar with everyday production language. Second, how can you say it is unethical???? I've seen first hand TOP PROS work this way, in the USA, a top Music Editing Firm. They do this ALL the time. Ok, they are music editors, not composers, but still. It is totally common practice.

Mike, I'm not surprised it stroke you as a bit odd that I, being a composer, acted as if I was a music editor.
You could say I kind of shoot my self in the foot for doing this, especially from a creative point of view. Curiously, the times that I have chosen to take this approach it has worked really well for me in the past... with the RIGHT people.
Also, it is how things are done here. I can't remember the last time someone hired me to write music without explicit and precise reference music. Some have to be educated regarding sound-alikes (big no-no), but most use that music as a reference, as a way to express themselves what they want.
Experienced directors/producers know temp tracks are... temporary. They often use them to make the video editing over "some rhythm" (that's how they call it here). Most of the people I work with are a pleasure to collaborate with. They've NEVER made me sound like the temp track I provide. On the contrary, they encourage me to make my voice sound, and I always strive for that. I just like it when they have a good idea of what to expect in terms of sound, style, etc.

It seems the conversation escalated pretty fast to being confrontational. That is very bad. Collaboration is a long term process and has been called "the biggest word in the theatre." Indeed, it is also the biggest word in film making. Repeat collaboration shows you are willing to work with others and bring them along in the process if that is necessary. Also, this is a word of mouth business. "Nice" counts for a lot and you don't want people saying you are difficult to work with

I have to be the coolest and easiest person there is to work with. Really. I LOVE collaborating with people, and enjoy team work. I'm always patient and nice to collaborators... as long as I get the same in return... at least some respect and fair treatment.

Funny. By re-reading my first post, it sounds as if it was I the one who behaved like an arse. My fault. Didn't provide all the context. What I failed to mention before is that I had heard horror stories about this guy from other people before (video guys, sound guys, etc). He's got the WORST attitude problem. You should hear him talk. It's as if he thought he was God himself, arrogant, very big ego, and stupid attitude.

So, when he contacted me, I was already biased, I admit. I met the production team, and it was all good. The second meeting he started to behave like an arse. He started using strong words, then he became abusive, to me and everybody (snapping fingers, ordering everyone around in a very rude way, etc.). Big attitudes and egos are BETTER supported by intelligence, skills, knowledge and experience, but when it is not the case, then it just becomes unstandable.

I've met lots of producers who are everything this other one is not... and they are always cool, nice, effective and great at their jobs. They communicate their ideas in weird but usable and understandable means.
So it seems that, the better they are, the less difficult they are to work with. But the opposite is so true.

I admit I was quick to jump at him (maybe too quick), and would NEVER have done it if it was anybody else. But I just wanted to show him that my life didn't depend on him, that if he wanted to work with me, he would at least have to show a little basic respect, that I have MANY other clients with whom I work great, and I don't need his BS, and I won't take it. So my reaction was probably the accumulation of crap, and I just lost it (and enjoyed it in a macabre way

Positions at Mexican McDonalds are often filled by this kind of people.
Two of the bigger Music Production Houses have turned him down already. He's starting to be known in the business as "the Arse", and he has closed door after door for himself.

I know producers and directors are the people who ultimately hire me to write music, and my income depend on them. But that's no reason to me to allow hot-shots to treat me bad. Maybe 2 years ago i would have ignored it, but, thankfully, I don't need that anymore. I can kind of choose my clients and my projects now.

I admit I got hurt A LOT by this kind of people when I first started, so maybe I just took it as "pay-back" time. Ok, I lost this gig, but it would've been a nightmare anyway, and, luckily, I have already a couple of other projects lined up and ready to begin production... WITH GOOD producers


Anyway, the WHOLE POINT of my rant here was not to discuss if I did good or bad with this arse, but to complain about the expectations, for unpaid work.
Where is the common sense factor? How could he think I wrote and produced all that music, in 3 days, without getting paid yet, on a budget of 6K??? And think that amazing sound is just a MIDI MOCK UP??????
How can somebody with that small brain call himself a ""producer"???

Someone who doesn't know the difference in sound between a quick MIDI mock-up, and a full Hollywood orchestral production has no business talking to composers about music. And remember, he wanted 'nother of 'em mockups in a few days.
Obviously he stroke a nerve with me there. Probably I have too much respect for my hero composers.

[FMiguelez]

They act as if they were "the one all-mighty-powerful"...

Here's another fact to consider. If they sign the checks, THEY ARE in that production. Get used to it my friend. Money is power in this business - and in most businesses.

Granted. But they better REALLY be in that position, and carry a big name with lots of experience and credits. For big time producers this is understandable (and in my experience, the better they are, the nicer they are with people). But newbies behaving like they are the last word in production? Normally you work your way up first, and once you are at the top, THEN you can choose to be an arse if you want... but it better be supported by results.

Apparently, he is so eager to show himself as an important producer that he thinks he must be an arse to be respected. Not too long ago he still had the production-assistant title...

[kassonica]

FMiguelez Wrote

Anyway, the WHOLE POINT of my rant here was not to discuss if I did good or bad with this arse, but to complain about the expectations, for unpaid work.
Where is the common sense factor? How could he think I wrote and produced all that music, in 3 days, without getting paid yet, on a budget of 6K??? And think that amazing sound is just a MIDI MOCK UP??????
How can somebody with that small brain call himself a ""producer"???

I think you did yourself a BIG favour. Clients like this are just NOT worth it.

The bigger the talent the more humble it seems.

Although you may of had a bit of attitude in dealing with this person I believe going on your posts that you did the right thing.

I've found in these situations it pays NOT to go to their level and keep professional and above their crap at all times. Then their true colors always shine out.

Easier said than done though.

Better this happens now then halfway through, methinks.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Well, my quick and dirty response is this:

The more difficult the collaborator, the more delicate you have to be with them. They have fragile egos and cracking their shells doesn't help.

We all have horror stories about certain people and how they can be impossible. Unfortunately, that comes with the territory. Survival is a matter of learning how to turn a situation like this around and make the guy an ally if possible.

Clearly it isn't always possible and it sounds like you saved yourself a lot of heartache by walking away from it. But even then, there are ways of doing so without alienating people. Here are a few "suggestions" on how to gracefully bow out of a project -

• Become "too busy" and decline the project.

• Quadruple your fee "based on your meeting." If they meet the new fee (and sometimes they will!) then it may be worth putting up with a moron for 6 or 8 weeks. You can cry all the way to the bank.

• Respectfully decline the gig as not what you thought it would be.

But like the advice married folks get (NEVER go to bed angry at each other) apply that to each professional (and amateur) you come into contact with: NEVER walk away angry unless they are absolutely abusive - in fact, never walk away angry EVER, just walk away. I find that kind of situation very rarely and usually those folks are just plain crazy. But that's a lot different than being difficult.

I don't pretend to tell you or anyone else how to act, but I have a lot of respect for you and your work and I want to see your succeed - you know that already. And I am not faulting you for getting upset with the guy. But I do think there are better ways to part company in this business that leaves your self esteem in tact and leaves the other guy wondering if maybe he was wrong. Had you left the situation in that manner, you might have gotten a call from him later next week saying he thought about it and really wants you on the project.

It's that kind of politics I know James won't object to. It is the politics of human behavior and unfortunately there is no other way around it without loosing a lot more than your temper in the process. At least that's how I see it from beautiful downtown Burbank. CA.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

"...they better REALLY be in that position, and carry a big name with lots of experience and credits.

Um... no, I don't really agree with that. I know big name folks who are total a-holes - I mean like superstars. And there are many others who are the best people on the planet. But the same goes for startups and lesser known people.

Big names and big credits are not the issue here. I see no reason to put up with a big name moron than an unknown moron. But you just don't know the stuff that may be going on in the other guys head and what kinds of pressures he might be under.

Again, I am not saying you should put up with abuse. But it seems like in part, this guy just didn't understand the process. Ask yourself: WAS HE BEING ABUSIVE TO YOU?

You said he had a reputation. Are you going to judge him on that or on how he treats you? You just can't go into a situation like that with an opinion of someone based on what other people say.

Conversely, he now has an opinion of you that may be less than flattering. So what? Well, he might talk to Joe Blow who will be in a meeting with you next week and be on guard that you are the problem child - based on what Mr. Potato head said to him about your meeting this week. Would you want that? Of course not. And so THAT is why I am saying to not prejudge people based on what others say. Similarly, you can't prejudge people because they "have a big name."

I grew up around "stars" and haven't been intimidated or star struck ever in my life. And I meet them in this town every so often and even get to work with a few. They're people, man. Big names don't mean crap. Sure, they can help get you to a new level, but don't change who YOU are based on who THEY are.

You're a cool dude who writes great music. All that matters is that you believe in YOU. The rest will follow or it won't, but in the end, all we have is ourselves. The better we politic with others, the better off we will be, regardless of how things turn out.

[FMiguelez]

I think you did yourself a BIG favour. Clients like this are just NOT worth it...

You are right.

I think it was best. Hopefully this person will try to be a bit more informed in the future, so he doesn't keep making an arse of himself.

BUT, I DO admit I didn't help the situation, and, uncharacteristically, I was rough as well...

• Quadruple your fee "based on your meeting." If they meet the new fee (and sometimes they will!) then it may be worth putting up with a moron for 6 or 8 weeks. You can cry all the way to the bank.

I like that option the most

Mike, I just want to say that, after reading your responses, you DO have a point. Actually, very valid pointS.

Thank you for being a friend and being just plain honest. I really appreciate your perspective and views on these things.

In this case, you've pointed out how I could've DEFINITELY handled things better, even to my advantage. You can bet that next time I have to deal with someone like this again, I'll think about the things you said before I let my temper kick in.

Don't get me wrong, though. It is very rare I lose my temper. Maybe I took a lot of accumulated anger and frustration on this guy (and the fact that he had been an arse for the past days didn't help) . I've had my share of being "abused" by others, especially when I first started out, and this was the spark that ignited my flame.

And by all means, I'd have no problem if this thread is moved to the composition area.


But still... Elliot Goldenthal's music, Horner's music, and DAVID ARNOLD's music sounded like MIDI mock-ups??

[blue]

Someone who doesn't know the difference in sound between a quick MIDI mock-up, and a full Hollywood orchestral production has no business talking to composers about music.

I don't think that's fair. Not everyone you work with is going to have an ear for music, but that doesn't mean they don't still need music. They are sometimes in the unenviable position of communicating something they know little about to someone who knows a great deal. You would hope they would approach that deficiency with humility, but for some they don't even know enough to know they're deficient! Personally, I like to cut those people some slack.

Like others have said, I'm not trying to inform you how to do your business. Obviously you felt a strong need to divorce yourself from this relationship. That's cool. Not every relationship is going to work out, and knowing when to get out is usually beneficial to both parties. Good luck to you.

[dmacintyre]

Funny. By re-reading my first post, it sounds as if it was I the one who behaved like an arse.

That's exactly why I posted the response I did. I wasn't having a go at you.

Someone who doesn't know the difference in sound between a quick MIDI mock-up, and a full Hollywood orchestral production has no business talking to composers about music.

Everyone has their own area of expertise and it's unfair to expect him to have your knowledge. Regarding your question over ethics and your assertion that the "top pros" do it : firstly do they do it with old examples of their own work or the works of others? I'd find it hard to believe that a "top pro" would use someone elses work as a temp score. Secondly, if "top pros" are doing it with other people's music it doesn't mean it automatically makes it ethical.

Anyway, purely on a social level, in hindsight you know you didn't handle the conversation well. You are also sounding a bit precious about the whole thing. As much as it's a creative job with a big piece of yourself in it, it's still just a job. Either accept or decline the work then move on to the next client. FWIW.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Perhaps you might also think of like this, FMig:

Cream rises; $hit floats. Both can be at the top at the same time.

Being selective is important, staying afloat is essential!

Watch out for that log!