Why are clients so out of touch with reality? Unbelievable..

[FMiguelez]

.

Ok. NOW I'm annoyed. Insulted. I've had morons before, but this...

I'm in a meeting with the client. I tell him I will prepare a temp track for him, to give him an idea of what the music will sound like. He wants a big orchestral score
So, I choose my favorite CDs, lots of soundtracks, etc. Start editing the music in DP against picture. I use lots of David Arnold, Horner, Goldenthal, etc. Sounds great (no wonder it sounds great... with THAT music.).

3 days ago I gave the QT to the client.

On a telephone conversation I just had today, this is what happened:

-----------[EDIT... these here reads as if I was the arse. The whole context and the "before this" are down-thread------]


Client: "That mock up of your music sounds fantastic."

I: "Thank you. But it's not a mock up of my music. It's a temp score, as agreed."

Client: "I see. Well. I like the way you write anyway. Do you think you could give me a totally different perspective on the music? I'd like to try new things. You obviously write very fast. Can you send me a few more options in a couple of days?"

I: "I could send you another TEMP SCORE. You DO know what a temp score is, right?"

Client: "Yes, it's when you compose music for our evaluation."

I: (more annoyed by the second) " .... eerrrr. No. That's not what I mean by a Temp Score. This is NOT MY music. "

Client: (getting angry and worried) "What do you mean that is not your music? I thought you wrote all that."

I: (wanting to scream) "In 3 days? You think I composed, orchestrated, mixed and mastered all that in 3 days" (remember we are talking about a 6 minute, full orchestral score here straight out of CD soundtracks)

Client: "well, yes... I thought that was your mock-up of the music..."

I: "What you are hearing, sir, is the work of some of the best film composers on this planet. Recorded at some of the finest Hollywood sound stages. Using the best Hollywood players/performers there are. Recorded by the best engineers. Mastered by the best ears there are.... AND YOU THINK THIS IS MY MOCK-UP?!?!?!?!?"

Client: "well, I must've misunderstood. "

I: "That's the understatement of the year. I mean, you think I did all that, using all that talent, in just 3 days? And you dare calling a MOCK-UP the work of this people?
You think I did ALL that without getting payed? Just for TESTS????!!!!!!"

I: "What exactly do you think the music I would write will sound like? With a budget of what... $6K????? You think that it is even possible to dream about doing all this with an unpaid budget of $6K????????? That's probably just the fee of a couple of the players of the Hollywood orchestras."

Client: "I just thought that was doable... you know, with all those computers and all..."

I: (my voice was at least 2 octaves higher now) "You are right. Do you know what? Go look for someone else. I find this not only insulting, but very uninformed. Do you have ANY experience as a producer at all?
I'll email you John Williams link. I suggest you contact him and tell him all about your score. And your budget.

He'll be happy to help you sell your product. BYE!" (I hung up.)






Do I need to say more? What are this people thinking?!?!?


How needs clients like this, anyway?

[rcannonp]

Is it a normal practice to give someone a temp score composed of someone else's music? I understand giving them some tracks to listen to in order to illustrate the vibe that you're going for, but it seems to me that actually putting them into their film is inviting all sorts of issues.

I don't do this sort of work, so that's why I'm asking.

[FMiguelez]

.

Music editors do it all the time.

Especially here, they are never sure of the kind of music they want. After MANY times of being bitten in the butt, I've learnt that I should not move a finger until they make up their minds. Otherwise, they keep asking for change after change after change. Sometimes they'll say... "No, we tought about it. We want a Bossa vibe now" (instead of a 60's rock song already produced).

This is an orchestral score. TONS of work. I don´t want them to tell me they want a piano solo piece after I did so much work.

I've taken more than 5-6 of those. No más. Nicht mehr!

[twistedtom]

You have to expect people to be dumb that way you are never let down by them, the trick is not to show you think they are dumb.

[Jim]

Clients come in all forms, just like musicians and composers. Most of my clients are fantastic, and have become long-term friends.

The young ones, which sounds like you got a hold of here, are generally trained in entirely different disciplines... which is why they need you. Until they get a few projects under their belts, they're flying blind, and have enough information and terms to be dangerous. I've been asked before if my master tape will have Simptee Dolby.

After being around for a while, I've learned to listen for clues that my clients are clueless. That's when I usually bring up money. If telling them $x/minute doesn't phase them, then I know it may be safe to proceed.

I don't mind educating noobies if it's going to pay off for me later.

We were all young and clueless once, and the new Brian DePalma's have to start somewhere. Often, you just don't know if you've got the Golden Goose or not.

OTOH, every time I've educated a young person in how things are done, they've ultimately left me in the dust, as they would rather hire somebody else once they can speak with authority, and lord it over them like they were some kind of genius.

The best thing you can do for your business is to foster long-term repeat clients. Duking it out with every other desperate small shop or freelancers for whatever short-term one-shot projects is very stressful. It may be glamorous to work on low-budget indy features, but long-term cyclical radio ads for the local car dealerships is better for the bottom line long term, allows you to plan your schedule and life, remove yourself from sales, and do financial planning for your business. Once you pay the bills, you can focus on pet projects or fulfilling pro-bono work.

IMO,
Jim

[FMiguelez]

I don't mind educating noobies if it's going to pay off for me later.

I don't either, but only if they have the right attitude. I've found, to my dismay, that it is precisely the newbies who have serious attitude problems. They act as if they were "the one all-mighty-powerful", the ones that know it all, when in reality, they make a cartoon of themselves for being so obviously green and clueless... not to mention NO COMMON sense...

Don't get me wrong. I, too, usually work with GREAT clients. Most of them are regular ones, the ones I work the most with.

I'm glad dumped this one. The photographer, who happens to be a good friend of mine, is already having ALL kinds of trouble with "Mr. Producer of the year", for this same project. I think he's walking out too...

Sounds like I ducked a bullet here.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Sorry FMiguelez, but you sure stepped in it this time

Always assume that producers and directors know nothing about music and sound production. Sniff some butt in your initial meetings and discussions and see what they know and what they expect.

But NEVER - let me repeat that NEVER make up a temp score of anyone else's music - especially without their permission.

Most importantly, you open yourself up to being stuck writing their scores for them and perhaps loosing your own voice. From a long term career perspective, this can mean the difference between being "the guy who writes like so-and-so" and "the guy who writes in his own unique style." The former is OK if that's what you want - but it ain't what I would want. You may find that the producer will go ahead and license music that sounds like the temp score you put together. Then you loose the gig.

I understand your anger, but never confuse ignorance with malice. This guy wasn't being devious (based on your description) but just didn't know any better. As I mentioned above, initial meetings are for butt sniffing unless the guys have a good track record. Many don't and are first timers. It is up to you as the composer, sound designer, etc., to educate them to your process. Another approach in this instance would be to diffuse the situation and say you are flattered by the compliment, and then go on to describe your sources. Again, I think using other people's music in this instance was a bad choice for a composer. For an editor, that is essentially what they do. That is NOT what composers do.

It seems the conversation escalated pretty fast to being confrontational. That is very bad. Collaboration is a long term process and has been called "the biggest word in the theatre." Indeed, it is also the biggest word in film making. Repeat collaboration shows you are willing to work with others and bring them along in the process if that is necessary. Also, this is a word of mouth business. "Nice" counts for a lot and you don't want people saying you are difficult to work with.

Finally, six minutes of fully orchestrated (mock-ups) is, indeed, quite doable. No, you won't get the sound of a fully produced live orchestral score, but you can give your collaborators an idea of your skills. Again, remember these guys know nothing about music creation. They know that in production you turn on a camera and get 6 minutes of film in 6 minutes. Maybe 4 or 5 takes to get the material you need. Our process is different, that's why it is called post production.

[blue]

Great advice MLC.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

They act as if they were "the one all-mighty-powerful"...

Here's another fact to consider. If they sign the checks, THEY ARE in that production. Get used to it my friend. Money is power in this business - and in most businesses.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Great advice MLC.

Cool! Blue and I agree yet again! See, we're working on our collaborative process here, FMig. If Blue and I can get along... well, maybe call your guy back and at least make nice to him. You never know...

BTW, thanks, Blue.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

ps- I would have put this in the composing section... THIS is the kind of stuff future composers can really learn from.

[chrispick]

Perhaps the problem was semantic?

When I present pre-existing film scores to clients, I make sure they know ahead of time they're samples to be used as idea springboards to get both factions on the same page before we embark on production. Those italicized phrases are purposefully in semi-corporate-speak so that my intentions are clear and in vernacular familiar to them.

Obviously, I don't agree you should never present a client with pre-existing ideas. Sometimes, for instance, they don't know klezmer from be-bop and need to be educated. Just make sure you give the final work your own twist and vibe.

Anyway, thereafter, should they request, I put together a very short, proof-of-concept sample which serves as my first attempt at the score. To note: From their perspective, they often need something fleshed-out enough to put in front of their superiors to keep their heads off the chopping block.

If they sign off on the concept-proof (usually, they do), I move into actual production with actual passes.

Now, I've run into producers unable to assess rough passes. "Um, will it have more instruments in it?" is a common question. A tough one to answer, but comes up often, is "What percentage-to-completion is this?" I usually mumble something like "I don't know. Forty?"

And, to reiterate what MLC and Blue assert, you have to keep your cool about this stuff. People will piss you off. You will piss other people off. But both parties have to operate amicably. Trust me: Return business can pop up from unexpected places.

Here's the thing: Clear, idiom-translated communication is your cross to bear. Producers interface with many different creative areas, all with their own lingo. It's up to you, really, to meet them on their language turf.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Obviously, I don't agree you should never present a client with pre-existing ideas. Sometimes, for instance, they don't know klezmer from be-bop and need to be educated. Just make sure you give the final work your own twist and vibe.

OK, I back off (moving away from the candle - not putting the candle back!) What I prefer is to temp a section with music I've already written or mock up something of my own. One thing I HATE is hearing the phrase "I want it to sound just like... <famous composer name goes here..> Drives me crazy! If they want Tommny Newman, get Tommy Newman. Can't afford him? Let's "tork!"

Sure, let's LISTEN to music together, but once it's sync'd with the pict, people get "funny."

[FMiguelez]

.

Thank you for your responses.

AArrrgh!! I won't have to time to respond now. I have to go now to a meeting. I'll talk to you more about this.

I think I didn't put things in the right context... But don't get the idea I'm always like this... No way!

I'm looking forward to discuss the temp track issues. At night, when I arrive, I'll log in to talk to you guys.

Later

[dmacintyre]

If that was a verbatim account of the telephone call complete with dynamics I think you are completely in the wrong. I personally am not a professional but I don't think it is ethical or legal to use other people's soundtracks without their permission in any capacity. You obviously didn't inform the prospective client that it was a cut and paste of someone else's work so effectively were not clear about who's work it was. I'm not saying that you were attempting to pass it off as yours but to the client that's exactly how it might appear.

But mainly I would think that as you are the composer and they are the producer that it would have been better to assume they are not an expert in the field and explain the situation to them at the point of delivery. It also reads like you flew off the handle very quickly and cut them no slack whatsoever. For all they knew it might have been library music which you were entitled to use (and could have produced quickly).

IMHO.