Reallly really REALLY hoping DP6 addresses some major issues

[amplidood]

I've been trying to avoid the imminent move in my career away from DP for years now, but it's getting very difficult. I and several people I work with on a regular basis have been staunch supporters of MOTU for as long as I can remember. There are things DP can do that no other software can do.

However...

DP's instability in large projects has become too stressfull.
Never knowing if a project is going to come back exactly as you saved it.
Crashing and simply disappearing at the most random times.
Bounce to disk not being at all reliable.
Merging soundbites too risky to attempt anymore.
Crossfade processing and handling is now a COMPLETE JOKE.
Overall performance on large projects is so ridiculous even compared to PT LE.
VI handling is really dismal now. Even PT handles latency on VI's better....You can leave your system at a high buffer setting and NO LATENCY for VI's.
And still no muting of MIDI notes? Wow.

These problems are consistent regardless of configuration.

Another producer and I have used DP through consoles to get really amazing sounding mixes, better than any other producers on the same record. Using DP purely ITB, however, yields a stunningly smaller result as compared to other DAWs.

I guess what I'm really hoping for is that DP finally catches up in areas that matter to EXISTING USERS and not just coming up with new ways to attract NEW USERS. If the EXISTING USERS become frustrated and feel that what they do is being seriously inhibited by *long-standing* problems, then there goes your first and best line of offense for attracting new users. And I have to tell you, in my small sphere of influence, the knocks against DP are making many people move on. It used to be you could just rack it up to the "each DAW is different". Not any more.

Do you think this is what I want? No. You think I want to be a slave to the money drain of other DAWs? Of course not.

Regardless of what I want, I have to keep up with the pace of other people that do what I do. And DP is becoming an obstacle to that.

PLEASE FIX THESE ISSUES MOTU. PLEASE.

[Frodo]

DP5 is among the last of the major DAWs still with no VI pre-rendering. I really believe that this feature in DP6 will offer tremendous improvements all around where your observations are concerned. I honestly believe that. It's the pre-rendering that will enable users to skip the freeze feature before bouncing and other [tasks]... and will allow the CPU to breathe a bit better. Result: less volatile audio editing and greater stability.

An interesting quote from the preview article has to do with AU improvements-- not sure I "fully" understand what it implies about DP5, but it says that AU improvements in DP6 will result in 100% sample accuracy. "100%" is a big promise and a very encouraging one.

The preview article really does say all the right things that seem directly related to what you and so many others have talked about or struggled with. This is such a tricky waiting period-- but when DP6 is released all we can do is try it out and share notes.

One of the biggest compliments, imho, has been Brad Lyons' review of it. He's a die-hard ProTools guy. I don't think he'd rave about it gratuitously. He might have just mentioned meeting with MagicDave and then followed up with a laundry list of features-- but he seemed genuinely excited about it.

You can rest assured that once DP6 is released, this forum will be a very busy place-- so keep tabs on what the early adopters have to say just for an extra measure of confidence.

Cheers,
Frodo

[monkey man]

Man, I sure hope DP6 delivers in spades for you and allows you to let the "should I switch now, or wait a little longer" thing go.

For different reasons, I've been in the same situation regarding DP since around 2002 (I think).
I'm not a pro and have funding issues, so I'm still waiting for MOTU to lay enough cream on to at least get DP into the ballpark of where other DAWs are in terms of an all-in-one package.
Not what you're necessarily after, but alas, we've both been patient and loyal so far, and I can surely relate to your dilemma, A'Dood.

DP6 sounds as if it'll be slicker in the audio handling department, so you may just be wrapped.
Fingers crossed, eh?

PS: Damn that Hobbit! He must type at lightning speed.

[Frodo]

PS: Damn that Hobbit! He must type at lightning speed.

typos and all!

[monkey man]

Hey, the Hobbit gets the job done.

FWIW, I wrote, "lightning speed" for the sake of consistency 'cause light speed can be tweaked up as well as right down to... 0km/h.

Take care Fwoggy.

[hellcat]

Have to say, all those problems you seem to be having with DP, I never have. The list you set up, well they all work like a charm on my machine. I suggest that you call Motu's support, and go through the list with them to see if they can help you patch things up. They've always been very resourceful and patient with me (no small task, mind you).

I use a Mac Intel 3GHz quad core machine, and it DP functions great on that. I also use large projects (orchestra stuff too!) and it doesn't crash on 4 GB RAM, so maybe you have a hardware problem. Motu's support has helped me delete files that have caused issues in the past, so try it out.

Why would anyone want to leave DP for ....Logic? Illogical! ProTools? Oh, so you like to throw away cash and pay 10x what DP costs.... and think of all the friends you'd miss on this board!

[amplidood]

Like I said, it's not my configuration. I work on at least 4 different configurations in town, and it's the same on all of them. No amount of preference deleting, system repair, disk maintenance, reinstalling ever fixes these problems.

Please reread my post and you'll see that all your points are met.

The Crossfades problem alone is enough for some people.

[bigcityrecording]

Like I said, it's not my configuration. I work on at least 4 different configurations in town, and....

right there with you... I've had many major problems that I know exist on many systems and I AM using mac pro 3.0, etc etc....

MOTU needs to get it together big time with the audio handling....

[midifool]

I've been using Performer and then Digital Performer since 1988. I LOVE it, and I've been loyal to a fault, in spite of VI latency issues, crashes and occasional lost data. Last weekend, I experienced yet another crash and lost data (AGAIN). I went to the APple Store immediately and picked up Logic Studio 8. I immediately went through the Logic Training on Lynda.com! I was blown away! I'm already doing stuff in Logic that I had just learned to do in DP. Besides the ease of use, I can't believe how much more stable and responsive this program is. More over moving a project from my iMac to my Macbook (and back) is seamless!! To be fair, I tried Logic before version 8, and it just made no sense to me at all (in spite of the name). DP6 had BETTER be this good. I'm not dropping MOTU (yet), I'm just adding a new tool to my arsenal. But then again, I could see Logic becoming my main program!

[bigcityrecording]

DP6 had BETTER be this good. I'm not dropping MOTU (yet), I'm just adding a new tool to my arsenal. But then again, I could see Logic becoming my main program!

I feel the same way, although I haven't tried the new Logic yet... I do know that the audio handling in Logic (latency, etc) is way way better than DP....

PeeTools makes no sense to me... also, I can't use it because I am using the apogee symphony system which is only compatible with the HD system - I wouldn't ever spend money on that!

DP6 better be good or I'm gone...

[Frodo]

Like I said, it's not my configuration. I work on at least 4 different configurations in town, and it's the same on all of them. No amount of preference deleting, system repair, disk maintenance, reinstalling ever fixes these problems.

Same here- same 3G, and some symptoms are common on my G5 and Intel in both Tiger and Leopard. Granted, some people are just not having the same issues as others, and I'm not having the quantity or frequency of issues I once did--- but I also suspect that AU compliance may be one major factor. BigCity, I know you don't use VIs and I'm aware of some of what you've been through with just doing audio. This was an eye-opener for me.

Somewhere between software working perfectly and throwing out one's hardware, there is a gray area were many of us dwell by default. I don't take hardware maintenance for granted, and I know others in my position have done all the right things to have their hardware checked out as well.

I'm just not prepared to accept that all Macs made after January, 2007 are defective-- which would be the only other explanation that would make any sense IF it were true.

As for contacting MOTU, all of my tech links were deleted before they were resolved. Quite often the responses I got back were that the problems could not be reproduced. And yet, a whole new significant DP is around the corner. This is a curious equation to reconcile, and certain issues that are commonly reported here with DP5 may be nearly moot if DP6's rebuild appears to be the forthcoming solution.

[Umbrella]

The Crossfades problem alone is enough for some people.

I have found that if you are doing crossfade edits in DP, particularly a lot of them at once, you have to just sit and wait until the background processing finishes - as in - don't save, don't do anything else. This has solved my crashing frustrations with fade editing... It's a bit of a PIA to wait if you're on a tight schedule - but really, I swear, I haven't had a "cross fade crash" since I started this practice...

[amplidood]

Do a speed comparison sometime between the crossfade processing in ProTools and DP. You will be stunned and sickened. DP spends most of its processing time recalculating fades...every time one moves it has to recalculate it. And then there's the problem of some projects having to recalculate fades EVERY TIME YOU OPEN THEM. Come on. Nonsense.

I could rant like this about every issue I have with DP...seriously. To be fair, though, here are some things I would miss dreadfully if I had to leave...

1. No DAW has the Overview/Sequence Editor setup. Absolute genius. Being able to zoom instantly on tracks that aren't next to each other makes other guys drool when they see it done.

2. The built in Pitch Editing. Holy cow that is so amazing and useful.

3. The flexibility of the interface. Only Logic compares in this area.

4. The musicality of DP is really hard to match.


So there are a few things I would hate not to have anymore. They are beginning to pale in the face of efficiency and stability, however.

Getting very pale, indeed.

[Frodo]

Indeed it's boiling down to a growing list of smaller things that on the whole contribute considerable time-- a couple of hours-- over the space of a work day when done repeatedly.

We've been talking about what not to do "on the fly" in DP for some time, and that's fine if it keeps the project running, but a few seconds here and there waiting for fades to redraw does add up. To add to this seemingly small concern is the fact that some people are finding that their fades have dumped themselves or are recalculating on every boot. Merging soundbites is not always desirable, but it has been one workaround that shouldn't be necessary-- and enough of those and you've lost your lunch hour (if not your lunch).

I'll submit bouncing and freezing as an example. I can't speak for ProTools, but bouncing a 5-minute tune offline in Logic takes about 10-15 seconds at the most-- probably less than that. DP takes a couple of minutes at least. Freezing tracks in DP is done in REAL TIME, but Logic freezes almost instantly. Five minutes is hardly an eternity until you have a client standing over your shoulder.

Once again, the pre-rendering feature of DP6 really should take care of this since VIs will not *have* to be run in real time any more. Direct bounce sans freeze is something I'm really looking forward to as I fully expect for the bounce process to take but a small fraction of the time that it does now. That AIFF and WAV can be used natively removes a whole other layer of background processing from the equation where SDII conversions are no longer necessary.

DP really is a great interface. I'm taking a short break from a project I've been working on for most of the day. Barring any problems, the app is simply not getting in the way. I wish I could say that about Logic, but I just love DP's workflow better.

I think the entire issue will be less glaring for those who only use DP, and it will be critically paramount for those who must use other DAWs along side DP for the sake of staying competitive or otherwise employed.

[Mr. Quimper]

I can't speak for ProTools, but bouncing a 5-minute tune offline in Logic takes about 10-15 seconds at the most

FYI, PT only allows for bouncing in real-time. It's a major pain when you're on a tight schedule.