Waves is truly NUTS!

FMiguelez · Post by **FMiguelez** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:27 pm

.

Hello.

I'll rant a bit about Waves, so please bare with me.

I just received and email from my Sweet Water sales engineer informing me that if I want my assistant being able to use my Waves bundle, I actually MUST buy the whole bundle AGAIN!!!
I know I could just give him my iLock and he could use the plugs, but then I could not do it at the same time...

So, I'd need to spend another $1,500 bucks... Again... I just don't know why, but I just assumed they would sell separate licences... like VSL does, like EVERYBODY does... at a discount, since I already have it...

Of COURSE I will not buy this thing again... I'll have to find another way, or just give Waves the finger and start forming another collection.

Hmmmm. What's your take on this??
Am I right in feeling surprised about this, or was I just being naive??

Cheers!

HeadMaster · Post by **HeadMaster** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:38 pm

We had the same problem in a PT studio some years ago, me and my partner we had one rig in the studio and each and one of us had a portable rig. We seldom needed to work at the same time with the plugins, but just the thought of having that iLok on the field and the not always convenient time schedules etc. (so there was no or little time to leave or pick it up at the studio) made me have a deeper look and see what could be done.

We abandoned iLok plugins more or less completely, we kept some must haves for the studio computer but for major workflow we dug up other plugins.

Audioease has the same system, and IR verbs on mac is so far the only problem we have had in terms of finding a good non dongle solution.

Other brands we use now are: Sonalksis, Audio Damage, Nomad Factory, Wavearts and some other, some free some smaller brands etc.

When you start diggin upp other plugins, you all of a sudden notice that waves, is not the only player on the field that has high end truly pro sounding plug-ins.

Only my 5c.

Good luck!

. . .
HM

spitfire31 · Post by **spitfire31** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:42 pm

AFAIK, no software vendor will allow you to use a programme on different computers simultaneously. This is really a standard license condition.

With an iLok you can use it on any number of machines, but only one at a time. Most (resonable) companies using an authorizing scheme will let you install the software on your desktop and laptop, on the tacit understanding that you'll only use one at a time.

However, many companies also sell 'family licenses' at a discounted price per license.

Seems to me it wouldn't be unreasonable for Waves to offer a discount for double licenses to the same customer, but if they won't, they won't. Waves hasn't exactly got a rep for generosity these days, has it?

/Joey

FMiguelez · Post by **FMiguelez** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:56 pm

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SpitFire wrote:However, many companies also sell 'family licenses' at a discounted price per license.

Yeah, that's what I mean. Like when I bought MS's Office, and Windows, I bought them once at regular price, and then I bought additional licenses MUCH cheaper! (I must be the ONLY Mexican with legit copies of Windows/Office)
VSL does it too. I just assumed everybody out there did this.

Seems to me it wouldn't be unreasonable for Waves to offer a discount for double licenses to the same customer, but if they won't, they won't. Waves hasn't exactly got a rep for generosity these days, has it?

Yeah, not really generous.

So, if I got the Mercury bundle, and I want my assistant being able to use it at the same time as me, I'd have to pay more that $7k once (for me), and then another $7k for his license. That's a whopping $14k investment, just for plug ins

No wonder why so many people just download it from a pirate site...

And then again, who knows how and if it will work at all in DP6....

What about MOTU, for instance? I want to have an independent, second station. I haven't seen any mention of extra licenses for DP. Do you guys know how much they are? Or is MOTU like Waves in this regard?

How many of you have this situation, where you need the same program more than once (like a second work station for someone who works with/for you)??
There are apps where you can instal them in more than one computer, but most won't let you. Have you bought everything twice??!!?? Got additional licenses??

kassonica · Post by **kassonica** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:38 pm

These are the reasons I've never used Waves and/or iloks.

I simply as headmaster states look for other options and I don't think my work has suffered either.

What ever happened to looking after the customer, good customer relations etc.

beautypill · Post by **beautypill** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:09 pm

Waves is a terrifying company. I'm absolutely astounded that they continue to have the market presence they do.

I was surprised to find that Audioease has the same policy. I generally think of those guys as hip, forward-thinking "indie" Euro guys --- the polar opposite of the Waves Darth Vader thing --- but when we asked for a discounted second license for Altiverb (so that I could work at home), they just stonewalled us.

--- Chad

FMiguelez · Post by **FMiguelez** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:24 pm

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Wow... that sucks...

These companies don't make it too easy for legit customers to "grow" on their stuff, or to keep things legal, uh?
I would've expected that, since I bought something from them, they'd have discount extra licenses for their legit users...

I have this friend who is a TOTAL pirate. He has, of course, everything Waves has ever produced, straight down from those warez sites. It took him minutes to download and instal. It took me a full day, tons of emails and a few calls to get it to work on my system. And VERY expensive.

After all the money I've invested in the bundles and WUPs, do they really expect me to buy everything AGAIN just to use the same thing?????? And they refuse to go on record about future DP support (the guy at the phone told me they could not assure me my Waves bundle would work with future versions on DP...)

If I was SURE support would be as it should be, as it is expected to be, I might really think about it, but not now...

I'll have to look into other companies for plugs, at least for the second work-station.

Hmmm... Even VSL, with their ultra expensive and high-end libraries have discount licenses...

What about MOTU and DP??? What's their policy regarding licenses (don't see anything on their site)

wheever · Post by **wheever** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:10 pm

spitfire31 wrote:AFAIK, no software vendor will allow you to use a programme on different computers simultaneously. This is really a standard license condition.

In the audio world there are at least a couple that do--NI being the big one. You get 2 licenses on all NI products so that you can have one on Laptop & desktop simultaneously. Tritone digital is another company that does this. It's a fine policy, I think.

BobK · Post by **BobK** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:59 pm

If you take the DP license literally, you won't use DP on more than one machine simultaneously without buying a second copy. I don't think this is that uncommon, or, if you have an assistant working at the same time, really that unreasonable. I do think a discount for a second license would be nice, particularly for pricey plug-ins like Waves.

FMiguelez · Post by **FMiguelez** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:02 pm

wheever wrote:
spitfire31 wrote:AFAIK, no software vendor will allow you to use a programme on different computers simultaneously. This is really a standard license condition.
In the audio world there are at least a couple that do--NI being the big one. You get 2 licenses on all NI products so that you can have one on Laptop & desktop simultaneously. Tritone digital is another company that does this. It's a fine policy, I think.

Yeah, but maybe I wasn't very clear (to Spitfire). I know not being able to use a program on different computers IS standard licensing... that is precisely why I thought I could by and extra second license from them for this very purpose, but with some kind of discount

But, as it turns out, they don't do this. So, like we say here:

Se van mucho a la chingada!!

FMiguelez · Post by **FMiguelez** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:04 pm

.

By the way, BobK:

You are not THAT Bob, right?

----

EDIT.

I just saw your profile. You are another Bob. Sorry.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:11 pm

beautypill wrote:Waves is a terrifying company. I'm absolutely astounded that they continue to have the market presence they do.

I was surprised to find that Audioease has the same policy. I generally think of those guys as hip, forward-thinking "indie" Euro guys --- the polar opposite of the Waves Darth Vader thing --- but when we asked for a discounted second license for Altiverb (so that I could work at home), they just stonewalled us.

--- Chad

That may be true, and it may be their policy, but let's make it clear: Audio Ease and Waves are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Audio Ease does their moral best to provide a great product, good service, and all in a timely manner. We all know that companies and their employees must profit, but AE at least succeeds in creating the illusion that the customer really does come first. Waves has no qualms about insulting their customers over the phone. (I've had very nice experiences with Waves, too, but the bad ones do overshadow and outnumber the good ones) They also cheat customers and retract paid service contracts without warning, and without refund or voluntary compensation. What compensation they give is not equal to that which they failed to give.

Waves was created by some very powerful research in the hands of some very astute programmers. That has been the treasure trove upon which the Waves marketers have heaped shame through their unethical actions. With such powerful software in their hands, they have acted as though they know we'll always come back no matter how badly they beat us down. Fortunately, their age of dominance is over. Now, the best plugins are coming from other sources. Waves is just another competitor. Unfortunately, many people do not realize that yet. Not surprisingly, Waves has yet to understand this. Or if they do, they're acting like there is no tomorrow as they continue to overprice their products and extort annual funds from users who basically are reduced to a "rental" agreement if they want to stay current and compatible. But adding injury to insult, Waves no longer seems to care about bugs. "It's your problem," is the going attitude.

As reports of various bugs and problems have rolled in regarding Waves official release of version 5.9.7, I have remained with the beta version, which has not exhibited any signs of being broken yet. My service agreement expires in December. I'm just hoping that all problems are ironed out before then, because I would like to go a few years without renewal. Over the next 5 years, I would like to replace my expensive Waves bundles entirely. Some of the plugins I buy may very well be made by Audio Ease. I do like their company, and Altiverb is a profoundly great device, to which Waves' similar product is a distant 2nd.

Shooshie

stiefelmusik · Post by **stiefelmusik** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:49 pm

FMiguelez wrote: I have this friend who is a TOTAL pirate. He has, of course, everything Waves has ever produced, straight down from those warez sites. It took him minutes to download and instal. It took me a full day, tons of emails and a few calls to get it to work on my system

I know just how you feel. There have been times where I have literally been on the verge of pulling out what little hair I have left left on my head trying to authorize fully legit software and plugins, while my [k]rack buddies were up and running within minutes of downloading the latest torrent. Extremely frustrating.

A few years back, I became so frustrated with Cubase dongle issues that I resorted to using a [k] although I owned a fully legit license. I was prepared to defend myself rigorously, should I ever face legal action over this decision.

As tempting as it is, however, to blame the software companies for causing major headaches for their legit customers, in the end it comes down to one thing for me: piracy sucks!

While I would never want to defend the stealth techniques some companies are now employing to fight piracy, in general I have to side with the software makers on the issue: piracy is a MAJOR problem, and WE are the ones getting screwed. Therefore, IT IS IN OUR INTEREST to be concerned about this problem, and thus put up with inevitable inconveniences.

Up to a point, of course. For example, I badgered Native Instruments on numerous occasions to please improve their authorization system, as did numerous others I am certain -- with positive results, I might add. Their Service Center app is much improved, and the last few times I've had to authorize NI plugs, it's been painless and trouble free.

As a mortal end user, I often feel rather powerless in this nasty business, so I sometimes have to rely on a personalized secularized concept of "karma" that tells me the pirates will "get it in the end."

waterstrum · Post by **waterstrum** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:03 am

I'll add my distain for Waves to the chorus.

I "own" the Platinum bundle and the IR reverb.
I've been a Waves customer for over ten years.
Their customer service has been horrible for me.
Their greed and arrogance are astounding.
I'm talking about the corporate philosophy, I'm not slamming any individuals.
I just don't get it.

Their plugs are great, but are no longer the only game in town.

I guess they have some "pro" income base that lets them do business this way.

HeadMaster · Post by **HeadMaster** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:29 am

Waves will always have a great customer base since there's a huge bunch of peeps out there that are brainwashed and in their heads plugins equals waves. I have had customers asking "what plugins do you have?" and when I start to mention some names I get "Oh, are those waves plugins as well?". I guess that's the real benefit of being first out on market.

I guess if you run a commercial studio (we just work with more or less our own choice of projects, my partner is an artist and an indie-producer), you will have to resort partly to waves just because of that.
. . .
HM