I'm working on an album. And I don't know the business of it

wonder · Post by **wonder** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:30 am

Hey guys ...

So here's the situation. I'm writing and producing an indie low-budget album for an R&B artist. I have written 12 of the 14 songs on the album. The artist has written the other 2.
I own the publishing rights on the songs with my own publishing company.

My questions are for royalties and points. The artist is going to sell the album and play live to promote the album. It will go onto iTunes, cdbaby, online sales, etc etc.

Typically, what is the point system spread out as? As songwriter and publisher, how much money per album sale do I get. How much does HE get on the songs he wrote? How much on the songs he's performed on? (all of them).

I will own the publishing on the album ... and I'm a little confused on how the flow of money goes. Can someone help?

thanks!

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:40 am

It's all determined by a little thing called a contract. If you don't have one, you need one - and a lawyer. Leave nothing to chance.

wonder · Post by **wonder** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:41 am

obviously.

but i was looking for generics. basic starting spots for points and royalties.

thanks

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:53 am

Particularly when you are in a collaborative process, it is not always possible to have a nice, clean and clear cut division of such things. For example: How much of the sale of the album is because the other artist is already well known or of interest? Can your songs be dropped before distribution? How much will be recapped by the record company before anyone sees profits? Do you have any rights if your songs are resold for a car or perfume commercial? Or are you out of luck? Has the collaborator done a buyout of the album?

Regardless of what you might have heard, there is not really any such thing as a "standard" when music is being sold for distribution. And if you don't have an agreement in place (even if it's written on toilet paper) a smart corporate lawyer will find a way around you.

As for licensing rates - your licensing agent (BMI, ASCAP, etc.) can provide those. If you don't already belong to one of those agencies, you need to do that YESTERDAY. And you need to deposit you works with the Library of Congress copyright office (also yesterday).

Anything less and you will probably get screwed and the licensing rates will remain academic.

OldTimey · Post by **OldTimey** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:59 am

on the songs he wrote, if you don't own the publishing rights then you will have to negotiate some sort of producer percentage, which is usually pretty small (10%) or nothing. He really doesn't have to give you anything.

on the songs you wrote, i don't think it's crazy to just go 50-50. unless you want more of the pie. you might have some leverage as songwriter/publisher/producer.

wonder · Post by **wonder** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:14 am

OldTimey wrote:i don't think it's crazy to just go 50-50. unless you want more of the pie. you might have some leverage as songwriter/publisher/producer.

50/50 with who?
50 me
50 publisher?

50 me
50 him?

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:25 am

wonder wrote:
OldTimey wrote:i don't think it's crazy to just go 50-50. unless you want more of the pie. you might have some leverage as songwriter/publisher/producer.
50/50 with who?
50 me
50 publisher?

50 me
50 him?

Dude, ask a lawyer if you're serious. You need a contract. Period. This is not the kind of thing you leave to chance or depend on info from a board like this.

The keywords here are LAWYER and CONTRACT. Everything else is really just guessing and estimates. Most importantly, HAVE YOU COPYRIGHT YOUR SONGS AT THE LOC?

Kubi · Post by **Kubi** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:51 pm

Plenty of books on the subject, i.e. by

Todd and Jeffrey Brabec, Music Money and Success
Donald Passman, All You Need to Know About the Music Business
Kashif, Everything you need to know about the Record Industry

Etc. Do an Amazon search, and happy studying.

Other good resources are IndieBible, CD Baby, etc. Google is your friend.

Then yes, get a lawyer and a real contract. You will get nothing but soundbites from dubious sources on an audio board (i.e. from me, I mean, WTF am I?)

Good luck!

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:54 pm

BMI? ASCAP?

OldTimey · Post by **OldTimey** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:54 pm

MIDI Life Crisis wrote: Dude, ask a lawyer if you're serious. You need a contract. Period. This is not the kind of thing you leave to chance or depend on info from a board like this.

The keywords here are LAWYER and CONTRACT. Everything else is really just guessing and estimates. Most importantly, HAVE YOU COPYRIGHT YOUR SONGS AT THE LOC?

i think you can get pretty serious without a lawyer. a number of indie record labels work without contracts. if you are good friends with the artist, then it shouldn't be hard to work out a deal.

LOC, yea get that done yesterday, as soon as the master is done. submit a sheet with lyrics as well. you register the recordings with Sound Exchange too. ASCAP, BMI, pick one and do your thing with them. not as important as the copyright stuff if you are an unestablished artist tho

Kubi · Post by **Kubi** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:08 am

OldTimey wrote: a number of indie record labels work without contracts

That to me is practically making sure there'll be trouble down the road, I would never ever consider doing that.

wonder · Post by **wonder** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:01 pm

i'm just asking to pick brains. i obviously would contact a lawyer in due time. I'm just wanting to have a conversation about this.

OldTimey · Post by **OldTimey** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:15 pm

Kubi wrote:
OldTimey wrote: a number of indie record labels work without contracts
That to me is practically making sure there'll be trouble down the road, I would never ever consider doing that.

i think it depends on the situation and the culture of the label/artists in question. it's not ALL about money. I know for a fact that the owner of Touch and Go Records deals with some of his artists without contracts. And it's been pretty successful.

David Polich · Post by **David Polich** » Sun May 11, 2008 10:11 pm

Here's my answer, having been through this kind of thing before -

Don't worry about dividing up money that isn't there. Seriously, I've produced three projects that went on the internet and were promoted by the artist in live shows. Those three projects didn't make diddly squat in terms
of profits. I think one of them was on i-Tunes for a year and sold four CD's total.

100% of nothing is still nothing. People don't realize what an enormous amount of money it takes to promote an artist and put them on the road.
A five-piece band with a soundman costs about $40,000 a month to keep on the road, and that's with band members doubling up in rooms at Motel 6's and eating at MacDonald's.

Yes, it's good to get things outlined in a contract. "Just in case". Bear in mind, "just in case" usually doesn't happen. Most artists never make any serious money ever. Successful artists are the exception, not the rule.
Flow of money? There's no money flowing at this point. The time to start getting concerned is when the artist gets signed to a label and gets some money behind them. If they don't, there is literally no way they can
finance the touring and promotions required to take them to the level where they're earning any real money.

None of us are music lawyers. If you want a contract you need to pay a music lawyer and get one drawn up.

MOTUnation.com

I'm working on an album. And I don't know the business of it

I'm working on an album. And I don't know the business of it

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