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philbrown wrote:
Bonus OT speculative question of the day:
What would the Beatles have been without the genius of George Martin?
Cheers
Phil
Phil, this is such a fun thread-- thanks for starting it and thanks for being brave enough to venture into the songwriting forum. MLC was mourning the lack of activity here just last week, and Jim had expressed a certain reluctance to post for various reasons.
It's so great to have a rock songwriting discussion going on-- and (personally) that we're talking about Beatles among other great songs and their composers will hopefully encourage the addition of more grass roots chats along side the more theoretical threads.
Q: What would the Beatles be without the genius of George Martin?
If you've read Geoff Emerick's book, he sort of discounts George Martin's contributions. After reading it, I'm ambivalent. While Martin was a superb arranger and very simpatico to what the Beatles were trying to do, remember he never actually came up with any of the song ideas from scratch. And we all know that's the absolute hardest thing to do. And give the Beatles, especially McCartney, credit for being willing to LISTEN to Martin's ideas, even elicit and encourage them. Too many of today's young turks have too many set ideas and prejudices to even TRY something like a large orchestra track. Or maybe they just don't have the money
kinnylandrum wrote:If you've read Geoff Emerick's book, he sort of discounts George Martin's contributions. After reading it, I'm ambivalent. While Martin was a superb arranger and very simpatico to what the Beatles were trying to do, remember he never actually came up with any of the song ideas from scratch. And we all know that's the absolute hardest thing to do. And give the Beatles, especially McCartney, credit for being willing to LISTEN to Martin's ideas, even elicit and encourage them. Too many of today's young turks have too many set ideas and prejudices to even TRY something like a large orchestra track. Or maybe they just don't have the money
Great points! I see up and comers trying to produce themselves because you can with today's technology and a producer costs extra. Sowing the Seeds of Love could have benefitted from a producer and a band listening: "Guys, great song but you have too many ideas on this one..." Todd Rundgren definitely comes to mind. Jellyfish- brilliant band that just went totally over the top on their second album, like trying to cram 5 novels in one book. It becomes a mishmash despite the brilliance.
Today's song:
Alone Again, Naturally by Gilbert O'Sullivan
Sappy? Yes. Great chord and melody structure though. Good posture, too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_P-v1BVQn8
Once again Phil you've introduced me to something I had never heard that I like. These guys really are good. Maybe some of the fade on the first tune went on too long, but it's still good. I'll have to check them out some more, maybe get an album. But I don't think it needed any input from a producer to make it better. I hate to be cynical, but it might be yet another example of good stuff not getting heard because of record business BS and the prejudices of the public.
By the way, a really fine songwriting album that I just got hip to and bought is an album called "crossing Muddy Waters" by John Hiatt from I think 2000. a mostly acoustic album with only three guys, it sounds like all the songs could have been written 100 years ago. And I mean that in a good way.
Kinny - Jellyfish's "Bellybutton" is the one you want. GREAT warm production and recording. Like good enough to use as a reference CD IMO. "I Wanna Stay Home" is one of my favorite songs of all time and relatively simple as their songs go.
John Hiatt is one of those good writers that unfortunately I have a hard time litening to just because I frankly don't care for his voice. We have an Americana station here that actually plays his stuff in rotation and I like most of the material. I used to do "Never Get Over You" when I was doing a solo acoustic thing for a while. His songs have been covered by a few folks over the years but I don't recall the specifics. Definitely a good writer. Marc Cohn is another good one, are you hip to him? LOTS of good songs there. I'll post specific if you're interested. I've done several of his too.
Here's one that slipped past everybody IMO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtkgE4h_EKw
The Chorus slays me. I'm learning this one solo - hope I can pull it off. I want to nail the chorus and it's a bitchdog to sing!
Funny you should mention Marc. I know him, and I saw him play last weekend. Actually he and I hadn't seen each other since he became famous, but I wrote a Schlitz beer jingle that was nominated for a Clio that he sang years ago. I brought him a copy at the concert on Friday just for laughs. He was nice, but not overly friendly. I bought his latest album and was a little underwhelmed. Too moody for me, and although the band was good, I thought the concert was a little sleepy. But I have liked his work, and "Silver Thunderbird" is a song I listen to still and one I think is a fine example of songwriting. His production might be a little too careful, but he can certainly write good songs.
I know what you mean about singer's voices. Although I like John Hiatt's voice, I can see why you might feel that way. For me, it was always Cat Stevens, Ian Anderson and believe it or not Joni Mitchell whom I couldn't get into. But you'll never here me say she's not a great songwriter (not completely sure about the other two).
kinnylandrum wrote:Funny you should mention Marc. I know him, and I saw him play last weekend. Actually he and I hadn't seen each other since he became famous, but I wrote a Schlitz beer jingle that was nominated for a Clio that he sang years ago. I brought him a copy at the concert on Friday just for laughs. He was nice, but not overly friendly. I bought his latest album and was a little underwhelmed. Too moody for me, and although the band was good, I thought the concert was a little sleepy. But I have liked his work, and "Silver Thunderbird" is a song I listen to still and one I think is a fine example of songwriting. His production might be a little too careful, but he can certainly write good songs.
Hey that's cool you actually know the guy. I saw him on some TV show doing a recent song and I didn't care for it at all. I haven't heard his latest release. Some good earlier ones were: Olana, Paper Walls, Lost You in the Canyon (good title), From the Station, Baby King (killer drums on that one). In his defense getting shot in the head might take a little wind out of your sails!
I know what you mean about singer's voices. Although I like John Hiatt's voice, I can see why you might feel that way. For me, it was always Cat Stevens, Ian Anderson and believe it or not Joni Mitchell whom I couldn't get into. But you'll never here me say she's not a great songwriter (not completely sure about the other two).
I pretty much concur with your examples too except Ian. Also some songwriter guy named Bob... can't recall his last name... Flipping channels recently saw another very famous songwriter guy that sounded so bloody awful my wife and I busted out laughing and changed the channel in about 6.5 seconds. And this was a major pretty high budget televised concert. Definitely an area where everyone's mileage varies!
I'd have to say my favorite songwriter for the last several years is Neil Finn. His DVD 7 Worlds Collide is a fave at our house. He's got quite the back catalog of songs when you consider Split Enz, Crowded House and Finn Brothers. Too many gems to list!
Actually Marc said that getting shot inspired him and you can tell that in the subjects of the new songs. I'll have to listen to them again. I actually like Dylan's singing, and I especially like him doing a ballad like the live version of "Visions Of Johanna". But not his singing now, although he's certainly one of those guys who's got nothing to prove.
I know a lot of other people like Crowded House, but I'm not that familiar, perhaps I should check Neil Finn out.
kinnylandrum wrote:If you've read Geoff Emerick's book, he sort of discounts George Martin's contributions. After reading it, I'm ambivalent. While Martin was a superb arranger and very simpatico to what the Beatles were trying to do, remember he never actually came up with any of the song ideas from scratch. And we all know that's the absolute hardest thing to do. And give the Beatles, especially McCartney, credit for being willing to LISTEN to Martin's ideas, even elicit and encourage them. Too many of today's young turks have too many set ideas and prejudices to even TRY something like a large orchestra track. Or maybe they just don't have the money
I've always thought that GM was an important "glue" for the Beatles. Of course, the Beatles were wise to at least listen to Martin-- but Martin also added some key trademarks such as the string octet arrangement to "Elanor Rigby", the signature piccolo trumpet part on "Penny Lane", the sped up piano solo on "For No One", etc.
The Beatles trusted him, and that was a good thing. One of them would imagine how something could be done-- Paul is seen in interviews reliving some of those moments when he says-- "Ah-- you mean we can actually DO that?" Such revelations and "license", if you will, proved to be both inspiring and liberating to the group.
I've never thought of Martin coming up with principal ideas. The Beatles always seemed to astonish Martin with what they'd bring to him. But what I think came out of it was a new awareness of how important the role of a producer really could be whereas before that time it may not have been quite so clearly defined.
One thing I found deeply fascinating were the out takes included on the Anthology DVDs and CDs. That Martin recorded those at all-- and that the songs were often so dramatically different-- shows that there was a great deal of creating and re-creating done on the spot. The "Yes It Is" out take is most notable because it was in 4/4 with straight eights rather than the 12/8 feel that came later. What a kick to hear John laughing about how he couldn't even sing the lyrics-- not even realizing that the lyrics themselves were already suited for 12/8 even when the music had been conceived differently.
I can't confirm who it was that suggested the meter be changed to 12/8, but whether or not it was Martin's idea I'm pretty sure that John would have rejected it had it not worked.
Frodo wrote:
I've always thought that GM was an important "glue" for the Beatles. Of course, the Beatles were wise to at least listen to Martin-- but Martin also added some key trademarks such as the string octet arrangement to "Elanor Rigby", the signature piccolo trumpet part on "Penny Lane", the sped up piano solo on "For No One", etc.
Not to be pedantic, but the sped up piano was on "In My Life", not "For No One" (which was a French horn). Evidently Martin has said the string chart on "Eleanor Rigby" was inspired by Bernard Herrmann's score for "Fahrenheit 415". And "Penny Lane" was because Paul saw a performance the F Brandenberg on the BBC and asked Martin what was that sound, he wanted to use it on Penny Lane. There's no denying Martin's brilliance. I just don't think he was the one who "made" the Beatles. And he certainly didn't write the songs, no matter how key his contributions.
Frodo wrote:
I've always thought that GM was an important "glue" for the Beatles. Of course, the Beatles were wise to at least listen to Martin-- but Martin also added some key trademarks such as the string octet arrangement to "Elanor Rigby", the signature piccolo trumpet part on "Penny Lane", the sped up piano solo on "For No One", etc.
Not to be pedantic, but the sped up piano was on "In My Life", not "For No One" (which was a French horn). Evidently Martin has said the string chart on "Eleanor Rigby" was inspired by Bernard Herrmann's score for "Fahrenheit 415". And "Penny Lane" was because Paul saw a performance the F Brandenberg on the BBC and asked Martin what was that sound, he wanted to use it on Penny Lane. There's no denying Martin's brilliance. I just don't think he was the one who "made" the Beatles. And he certainly didn't write the songs, no matter how key his contributions.
Oops-- I deleted part of the post-- yes-- piano on In My Life, horn on For No One.
That aside I hope you realize that I was agreeing you.
So many other people have discredited Martin for what he did without fully appreciating what he did-- or they tend to overestimate the extent of what he did. It was just nice to see someone speak "in balance" for a change.
Frodo wrote:
That aside I hope you realize that I was agreeing you.
Actually I wasn't sure, but I'm glad to know. You know I met George Martin about 4 years ago in Lexington KY. Unfortunately it was in a noisy crowded room, and as you may know, he now wears a hearing aid. I didn't get any real chance to talk to him, but I did get him to sign my vinyl copy of Sgt. Pepper's, in the yellow part above Paul's head. A great honor. Glad to see him and his son getting a Grammy a few weeks ago.
I love hearing about different people's creative processes, especially those you admire. They are quite varied - even with one writer! I'm thinking of picking up some more books like that just to really get immersed in the writing vibe. Getting the focus revved up like that kinda primes the pump for me, and it's more fun than staring at that blank piece of paper or flailing the guitar until it comes up with a good idea. But that's fun too sometimes. As long as one is not flailing oneself beacause the paper's still blank.
Flipping channels recently saw another very famous songwriter guy that sounded so bloody awful my wife and I busted out laughing and changed the channel in about 6.5 seconds. And this was a major pretty high budget televised concert. Definitely an area where everyone's mileage varies!
