Breaking the barrier...

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Well, I have to say I am a bit disappointed in this little section of Unicornation. It's been up now since June 2007 (almost exactly 9 months to the day today) and there are only 50 topics (including this one) with close to 900 posts - or 100 posts a month. But I guess at an average of 4-5 topics a month that comes out to a topic a week, so that ain't too bad. Yet, it still seems like there would be a lot more to talk about in terms of songwriting, composing and arranging and stuff like that.

Perhaps the Business of Music area grabbed some of the attention as well as the Gripes area. Nevertheless, I'd like to encourage members to not hesitate to post questions, comments, opinions, etc. in regard to the section topics.

On the plus side, it could be mentioned that the MX2 section as well as the Unisyn & Ethno sections are more sluggish (considering they've been around for a bit longer).

[philbrown]

Well, I have to say I am a bit disappointed in this little section of Unicornation. It's been up now since June 2007 (almost exactly 9 months to the day today) and there are only 50 topics (including this one) with close to 900 posts - or 100 posts a month. But I guess at an average of 4-5 topics a month that comes out to a topic a week, so that ain't too bad. Yet, it still seems like there would be a lot more to talk about in terms of songwriting, composing and arranging and stuff like that.

Perhaps the Business of Music area grabbed some of the attention as well as the Gripes area. Nevertheless, I'd like to encourage members to not hesitate to post questions, comments, opinions, etc. in regard to the section topics.

On the plus side, it could be mentioned that the MX2 section as well as the Unisyn & Ethno sections are more sluggish (considering they've been around for a bit longer).

For my part I really like reading what I can follow here, but it has a tendency to follow the educated people-that-read-music scoring and composer ideas. I'm 53 and have been playing since I was 9 and playing for the public (actual gigs) since I was 11. But I have no paper on the wall to show for it and I can't really read music even though I have good ears. I've done the recording engineer-producer-arranger thing, ran many bands, played 6 nights a week blah-blah-blah, but I'm still not legitimate enough for most discussions here so I simply lurk. I'd love to see some more "blue collar" exchanges here, say about songwriting aspects or arranging but it doesn't seem to be that kind of crowd that hangs out here, so far at least.

Now and again I think of a topic that I'd like to start here, but pretty sure it wouldn't fly. As an example about a week ago I was analyzing some XTC songs that represent some very outside-the-box songwriting and almost posted here but could already hear the crickets chirping before I even posted. There's probably a couple of people that could comment, but most would react about like I do hearing about Arvo Part vs Ligetti (where I have nothing to contribute whatsoever). No big deal or critcism intended (AT ALL!) but just an observation from the other side of the fence.

I'd love to see a discussion about semi-algorithmically generated "controlled randomity" music, which is a strong interest of mine, but I could see that immediately swerving to 12 tone serial composition or the like, and again I would be out of the loop from that point. Maybe I'm pessimistic but I see that thread lasting about 2 posts before it would be over my head, way off topic, or both - and yet, I've spent the last several years exploring this way of working so I do feel like I have some things to contribute....

I posted some scale charts recently with a few folks extremely appreciative, but I was really hoping it would generate some discussion as it's certainly on-topic here, and another strong interest of mine, but it generated zero discussion. No criticism intended here at all, but there you go- I tried

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Another aspect that could be mentioned, since I am an example - for years all I have logged onto is the main DP area here. I was dimly aware of other areas but just never wandered there for whatever reason (mostly just habit). There may have possibly been the perception that "those are those off-topic areas where people rant and rave" (which I don't care for). Then I finally got a block of time off and actually got bored and poking around and found some of these other areas that are quite interesting. But I imagine there is a percentage of U-people who just never wandered in here and aren't aware of it.

I have a couple other ideas but will leave off here, I don't want this to come off as a rant in any way!

Cheers
Phil

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Thanks Phil. Funny, I sometimes get the feeling if I say anything about classical stuff, I'll get flamed for that. But let me respond to your statement a little.

As for myself, I am not formerly trained either. I played drums in elementary school thru high school and went straight away into rock bands as a drummer, then a guitarist and gravitated to keys. I had a few lessons in piano from age 3, but never really got serious about it until I was about 17. And even then, I never really took my teachers seriously. I took the instrument very seriously and classical music became my passion. No decent classical school would have me (I didn't sight read at the time) and I didn't want what Berkeley in Boston was offering.

So I trudged on - on my own - which I continue to to do to this day. My training has been all 'real world' but I've been lucky to be in the right place at the right time (from my perspective at any rate). My training in the academic pursuits has been all self-taught. As a result, I don't really fit in with a lot of academics and have musical views that are far from what they teach in schools. Frankly, I like it that way!

So you won't hear me discussing 12 tone theory (although I do understand it). Nor will you hear me bashing your taste in music, as I am just as likely to be listening to Tull as Vivaldi or Cage as Oscar Peterson. I do, however, hold sight-reading in very high regard. I rejected it as academic for many years - mainly because I couldn't do it very well. Score-reading (mental 'audioization') has always been fairly easy for me, even in large orchestral scores - it's getting my fingers to do what my brain sees and hears that was the problem for me personally. When I left my teaching job after 14 years at the U of CA in 2000, I had time on my hands and devoted as many hours to building my sight reading skills to as high a level as possible. I'm still working on that, but practice can make perfect and the difference 8 years of diligent practice makes is very rewarding. But again, I've been very lucky to have had the opportunity to devote time to that pursuit.

Computer generated music does little for me. I've heard a lot of that kind of stuff and having worked at the UC Santa Barbara, know a few of the big names in that area (Kraft, Kuchera-Morin) as well as a few of their highly acclaimed grads. But the whole thing leaves me feeling a bit empty. My view of music is much more immediate. It's about human expression for me, not about the CGI version of music creation. Besides, sitting in a room and waiting for a computer to tell me what I created just seems so far removed from the expression part of music that I really have no need for such pursuits, whatsoever.

I've babbled on too long (as usual) but I hope I have responded to your post. Now I guess it's time to wait for some member to accuse me of "pontification." It is so sad when people don't have an opinion or the power of their own beliefs to express then, and then accuse others (who have those traits) as being somehow deficient. If you see me doing that please take he opportunity to hit me upside the head with a bladder full of stones and have the Lilliputians tie me down for a bit. Of course, if we want to discuss the philosophy of music here, as well as the literature (or literature in general) that would be fun.

Nietzsche or Gibson anyone? Sondheim?

Thanks again for the post, Phil! I really do appreciate it.

[philbrown]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply MLC - you are quite a guy! I mean educating yourself to that degree -that's very impressive and I mean that sincerely. Hey just for the record I meant no criticism at all in my post of you or anyone else here - just mostly that this area leans heavily toward composing, and from a more academic perspective IMHO. For instance I just scrolled down the screen and unless I missed something, I don't see even one topic about songwriting, per se. But I'm not inclined to start any either, as I feel it would (probably) immediately go in a direction that I couldn't even follow as the topic starter. I guess we could try it as a test sometime though

Your reacton to computer generated music is mine as well. I'm talking about something different than that, but we can save that for another discussion....

Cheers
Phil

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Necessity is the mother of invention.

There is so much to be discussed about song structure (as well as structure of classical works) that it can (and does) fill volumes.

Maybe there aren't any songwriters here?

Oh well. We got our 2 (s)cents in...

[philbrown]

Well, Mr Moderator

Here's an On-Topic question then: (I think)
How do we post songwriting/arranging examples so those unfamiliar with a certain song can have a listen? Linking to Youtube videos or MySpace links can work but what if there are none to link to of a particular song? I'm really ignorant of music law but I suppose it's illegal to upload a song even for illustrative purposes, and yet Youtube is loaded with everything imaginable lifted from all different sources and there it all is... Anyway, I don't mean to start a legal discussion, but I am wondering how can we post or refer to music for illustrative purposes - like for songwriting or arranging discussions...

elipsisly yours...
Phil

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Tough one. You're right, it's a legal problem.

I might suggest (if the song is on iTunes) that those interested spend 99 cents and buy the song in question. A small price to pay, IMO.

[OldTimey]

This sub-forum overlaps with "user showcase" in a sense, in that people seeking opinions on their compositions usually go there first.

i'm glad for this subforum though, it's a good place to have music theory discussions. I have a couple of binders full of piano and chamber pieces I've written during my college music-major days. i hope to get back to them some day, im just fully entrenched in good ol rock music at the moment. so talk about classical music all you want, you can know that i am listening, and sometimes talking!

[Frodo]

I agree with the "forum overlap" theories. I also agree that this thread has gotten some early energy from a certain kind of user where terminology is easier to type than it is to show by extension.

But, James was quite clever to name this place "Composition, Orchestrating, Songwriting, etc." That about covers the possibilities should members dare to venture into this territory. Composition and Songwriting are topics that cover quite a range of tasks and approaches without being hindered by any particular level of training. Orchestration and Arranging are also topics that overlap a bit. The "etc" part ensures that the intent of the forum is not about exclusion.

Why the MX4, Ethno and Unisyn sections are not exactly the hubs of U-nation could stem from the fact that fewer people have them or use them. As for this place, everyone who uses DP encounters some degree of composition, orchestration/arranging and songwriting-- and where those categories leave off, there's always "etc".

The difference is that not everyone has had a need to read music to accomplish their goals. Some of the most creative and innovative musicians that ever walked the planet could not read music. The more obvious types of musicians might be in the non-classical realm, but it was no secret that Luciano Pavarotti had a huge handicap in this regard-- he learned his music by ear. And there are others.

It might also be remembered that a forum is by nature a linguistic means of communication, primarily. Those who do not regularly employ the language of music theory might naturally struggle with expressing theoretical concepts and ideas which otherwise exist in a more visceral form in their thought processes.

But I would hope that no area of discussion in the way of composition, orchestration, and songwriting (etc) would be inappropriate, even if such topics are dealt with in layman's terms or whether a host of nine-dollar college words were being used to get the point across.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Well, the fact is that many folks post stuff in the DP section because they think they'll get an answer there and be ignored here (or elsewhere). Which is really quite the opposite! They might get ignored in the wrong area - then po' James has to move the thread and by that time anyone who might have answered has lost interest. I know I tend to loose interest when I see blatant mis-posting just to get attention.

Then again, maybe I should have started this thread in the Showcase Forum...?

Only kidding... ONLY KIDDING!!!

[Jim]

Or, maybe it's because of the notorious "22/8 Slapdown" of recent memory. That one hurt to watch, like any train wreck.

[philbrown]

Or, maybe it's because of the notorious "22/8 Slapdown" of recent memory. That one hurt to watch, like any train wreck.

Yeah but there are some some very cool 15/16 posts in that thread so there you go - it's like a yin and yang symbol or something
Hey it got me to Ipo Papasov so it must have been worth it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QkUKmIJed4
I admit I've watched this video like 14 times now

Ok back to the [your time signature here] thread

[Frodo]

No doubt, threads get started in strange places for strange reasons. I do see people double posting in the DP thread and the OT thread "just because". But I also see threads get started in the DP forum that reveal answers which develop into discussions that are perhaps better suited for a different forum. Someone might be having trouble with DP settings and this quickly turns into RAM question-- then it gets into type of RAM and where to buy that RAM (OT forum). Or, it could turn into a discussion of Mac Hardware instead or into a discussion of a problematic VI or even some OSX settings.

But more directly to your point, I've posted questions in the Mac forum or the OT forum or other places that I thought were appropriate and those threads remained unanswered or received a response expressing a lack of interest.

But even if this forum isn't the busiest, I'm glad it's here. It's still a young forum, and I believe it will continue to develop. There have been some interesting topics raised here, so perhaps it's more about quality and not quantity?

LOL-- re: Showcase Forum. I was just pondering justifications for this very thread finding its way to the OT forum!! I'm only kidding myself, but it can be a head-scratcher.

[AlMacMeister]

Or, maybe it's because of the notorious "22/8 Slapdown"...

LOL!

Well, as the person who started that thread, I would say that there were some, shall we say, strong opinions, thrown around. But I think musicians tend to be very passionate people in general, so strong opinions are to be expected. It was worthwhile though; I know I certainly learned a lot from that thread and discovered A LOT of interesting music because of it. "22/8 Slapdown" lol...I like that!

[Jim]

Or, maybe it's because of the notorious "22/8 Slapdown"...

LOL!

Well, as the person who started that thread, I would say that there were some, shall we say, strong opinions, thrown around. But I think musicians tend to be very passionate people in general, so strong opinions are to be expected. It was worthwhile though; I know I certainly learned a lot from that thread and discovered A LOT of interesting music because of it. "22/8 Slapdown" lol...I like that!

Agreed about musicians being passionate and having strong opinions. I also discovered some interesting music from that thread. And I can always brush up on theory. Actually, my reply was a smokescreen. I don't post more in this forum in fear of being exposed for my lack of musical knowledge.

I'm mostly self-taught as well. My years in band in Jr. High and HS don't count up for much. I do read this forum though, and appreciate those of you who have discussions that are over my head. My music understanding is like my Spanish. I can't speak it well, but I can catch the drift when I read it.