A competitive DP

[iMAS]

Not orange, even just white. Imagine looking at this all day:

From your recent posts, you obviously have a huge disdain for L8.

Though I'm still a DP guy for the moment, L8 ain't as bad as you're making it out to be. And I use to be repelled at the thought of getting Logic. But hey this is a DP forum so they would welcome L8 bashing.

(Apology to Chris for getting OT)

[zaster]

Not orange, even just white. Imagine looking at this all day:

From your recent posts, you obviously have a huge disdain for L8.

Though I'm still a DP guy for the moment, L8 ain't as bad as you're making it out to be. And I use to be repelled at the thought of getting Logic. But hey this is a DP forum so they would welcome L8 bashing.

(Apology to Chris for getting OT)

I don't think that's fair at all! I've been absolutely gushing about some of the features! (http://www.unicornation.com/phpBB2/view ... hp?t=23597) Maybe you've just read the wrong posts. I was only saying that for me, changing the color was more distracting than leaving it alone.

[blue]

Take folders for a quick example. Why should I have to wade through sub-menus to add a VI, MIDI track and containment folder? To my mind, that should be the default, one-step setting.

The "Add Instruments" command does this. Am I missing something?

[ba_hill]

Hi,

I bought Logic Studio a week ago and, too, have been thinking about what this package means, if anything, for the Mac DAW world and specifically for MOTU. I definitely fall into the "doubler" camp. I'll use both DP and Logic depending on which is the better tool for the job. I don't mind learning 2 (or more) apps. I've been using DP since verion 3 and am really comfortable with it and like a lot about it. There's also a lot I really about like Logic - its efficiency, its sound, its plugins and its new GUI - but what impresses me most is what it seems to say about Apple. It seems that the audio guys and gals at Apple were given the time and resources to try to build the best Logic they could. An awful lot of thought went into Logic 8 - it shows up in big stuff like the GUI makeover as well as small stuff like the ability to use the computer's remote control to control the transport. And all of that was done while maintaining almost all of the functionality that Logic had previously. Anyone who doesn't like the changes can use Logic pretty much as they did in version 7. Logic is far from perfect but it really looks to me like the developers looked at Logic 7 and said "How can we make this better?" and then set about to do that.

I wonder if MOTU has had the opportunity to sit back and really think about what the best DP they could build would be. It seems to me that the last 2 major number upgrades, 3-4 and 4-5, were mainly concerned with compatibility. Version 4 introduced OS X compatibility and 5 introduced MacIntel compatibility. There were improvements along the way, especially in the 4.5 and 4.6 updates, but since version 3.11 MOTU's focus seems to have been more on compatibility than building a better DP. They haven't really had a choice. I'm hoping that with version 6 (if Leopard doesn't require the same effort as going to OS X or Intel CPUs did) MOTU will have the time to build the DP of their (and, I hope, our) dreams.
On the other hand maybe, as Frodo mused, what we have now is the DP of their dreams. Obviously a lot of us (and I do include myself in this bunch) are happy with a lot of DP. Still, there's also a lot I would like to see upgraded like its efficiency and plugins and ability to natively handle audio formats in addition to SDII.

Brian

All this Logic 8 hullaballoo has me thinking about how to improve DP to make it more competitive.

I've been quietly obsessing about this all year, Colonel. Before I proceed, keep in mind that I agree with you.

Here are some of my ideas...

1. Beat 'em at the quality level.

This means developing/acquiring/integrating top-level plug-ins. The current ones are adequate, at best. Yesterday's processing effects aren't good enough for today's market expectations.

In this respect, it's MOTU who must first believe that the same plugins which have been recycled for all these years need a facelift where the turnkey standards have been raised considerably in other areas of the plugin world. Nuendo 4 is boasting 38 new plugins. I wasn't aware that Nuendo's plugins were suffering so much based upon what Steinberg has had to say about them. But MOTU has to first come to terms with its own concept of what's *good*, what's *good enough*, and what is not cutting for users. A plethora of third-party options via AU/Core Audio offer less motivation for them, perhaps.

[snip... ]
This sort of goes back to the plugins issue. Does MOTU really think that DP's GUI is lacking? To that extent, does it matter to them what people are even saying about L8? What if MOTU simply finds Logic as abysmal as it always has and sees no need to adapt someone else's concept of what is attractive?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as always. MOTU may still be quite proud of the way DP looks.

But this whole conundrum for me centers around the fork in the road where what *many* or *some* users want apparently parts ways with what MOTU thinks is adequate and proper on their behalf (or its own).

[chrispick]

Take folders for a quick example. Why should I have to wade through sub-menus to add a VI, MIDI track and containment folder? To my mind, that should be the default, one-step setting.

The "Add Instruments" command does this. Am I missing something?

Well, just that it's evidently kludged on.

Project / Add Track / Instrument Track / Add Instruments / then assign instrument/folder/MIDI track variables.

I use the keystroke command to get me there quicker, sure. It's just that it's such a fundamental step to any project, you'd expect it to be less convoluted. Just pick a VI, and it automatically gives you a folder with MIDI tracks, no questions asked.

Maybe it's a bad example. But it does seem like an add-on function when it shouldn't.

[blue]

Well, just that it's evidently kludged on.

I agree it should be the default when adding an instrument track. In fact, I changed the key command for "add unassigned" to "add instrument," which gives you all those options all in one move. This just seems like a poor choice of defaults on MOTU's part. Other than that, I can't really think of how they could make it better. I definitely like having options.

One of the more tacked on things for me is the consolidated window. Great idea, but poor execution. And probably because they tried to fit it into an existing framework. There's a lot of wasted space in the CW, and the sidebars seem less than elegant. Plus, I just wish MOTU would do a proper channel strip rather than have this "scroll mixer to track" nonsense.

[duncan]

... I thought the prevailing wisdom was that no DAW has any percepible "sound"? Do you mean due to its plug-ins, or really truly the app?

Here's the link

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/logic-8- ... dp-l8.html

The guy says he took a mix in DP and sent it to logic via OMF, used the same plugs, same settings, same everything. There is a noticeable difference between the two mixes. For one thing, in the L8 mix, the vocal is less present and the guitar is more present, which could have something to do with pan laws, or changed plug settings... whatever. It does reinforce the consensus opinion over there that DP's internal summing is not as transparent as it could be. (I think they're all just jealous because they got stuck with PTLE, or they mortgaged the house for PTHD.)

[Jim]

Sadly, I think DP is doomed. Doomed, I tells ya. MOTU can't compete with Apple on price. The only way they can compete is on features and stability. Not having the inside skinny on OS development is going to make it difficult for MOTU to stabilize their products quicker than Apple can... but not impossible. They just have to be smarter at it.

That's how Avid competes with Apple in the NLE and DAW market. Avid innovates, and Apple copies, coming up with inferior, yet predatory priced offerings that appeal to new markets.

This Apogee/Apple alliance has something to it, though. Maybe MOTU needs to team up with SSL or some other hardware heavyweight and introduce an exclusive partnership. Or maybe MOTU should buy out Black Lion and mod all their hardware so that it competes with the big boys. Or, maybe MOTU could sell out to Avid, and turn DP into ProTools/DP Native, and expand their DAW line to the low end, like they did with the Avid Liquid NLE.

If you look a the history of competition between DAW and NLE developers, it's been a litany of tit for tat feature additions. They put in user interface options... we put in interface options, and so on. The sure way to lag behind is to be lazy and complacent.

And unfortunately, the best way to broaden market appeal is to dumb the thing down... which is the very thing that will alienate pro users.

I dunno... just throwing out ideas. But, they've got to be feeling the heat. This situation requires a paradigm shift, IMO.


Edited to add: Don't get me wrong, I'm loyal to DP. I'm not planning on buying Logic unless/until DP goes the way of the Dodo, and there's no alternative. DP does everything I need to do, and it does it to my satisfaction. Likewise, I'm not planning on upgrading to Final Cut Studio 2 either (unless the only way to use V3HD or AJA IOHD, etc. is with FCP). My Avid and Adobe apps do everything I need, and are faster, easier, better, more professional...


.

[sdfalk]

That's how Avid competes with Apple in the NLE and DAW market. Avid innovates, and Apple copies, coming up with inferior, yet predatory priced offerings that appeal to new markets.



Interesting point of view since (I assume you're referring to) Final Cut Pro
was originally developed by Macromedia, not Apple.
Also having used Avid based hardware/software solutions, I just dont see
the copying at all.
Mind you, to a certain extent EVERYbody copies everyone else anyway.

[OldTimey]

1. Beat 'em at the quality level.

This means developing/acquiring/integrating top-level plug-ins. The current ones are adequate, at best. Yesterday's processing effects aren't good enough for today's market expectations.

Few users love Logic's native plugs. DP would win over many if it were perceived as the DAW with the best plugs out of the box.

Look at MWEQ! Update the entire master works suite! Honestly, if DP had:

-MWEQ (already has it, this is the ONLY plug other DAW users want but can't have.)

-New MW Multiband
-New MW Limiter/Dither
-Some sort of MW Convolution Verb, just take the MSI algorithms
-MW De-esser
-New MW Gate
-MW Compressor (basic good compression, a la RenComp)

That there would be half the battle.


As for pricing, I think MOTU should drop DP's price down to 399. However, it should also create a "DP Studio", maybe market it for 699 to 799, and include MV2, MSI, Ethno, and MX4.

there's just so much they could do to make DP more enticing on the plugin front...

sigh...

[Shooshie]

Sadly, I think DP is doomed. Doomed, I tells ya. MOTU can't compete with Apple on price. The only way they can compete is on features and stability. Not having the inside skinny on OS development is going to make it difficult for MOTU to stabilize their products quicker than Apple can... but not impossible. They just have to be smarter at it.

That's how Avid competes with Apple in the NLE and DAW market. Avid innovates, and Apple copies, coming up with inferior, yet predatory priced offerings that appeal to new markets.

This Apogee/Apple alliance has something to it, though. Maybe MOTU needs to team up with SSL or some other hardware heavyweight and introduce an exclusive partnership. Or maybe MOTU should buy out Black Lion and mod all their hardware so that it competes with the big boys. Or, maybe MOTU could sell out to Avid, and turn DP into ProTools/DP Native, and expand their DAW line to the low end, like they did with the Avid Liquid NLE.

If you look a the history of competition between DAW and NLE developers, it's been a litany of tit for tat feature additions. They put in user interface options... we put in interface options, and so on. The sure way to lag behind is to be lazy and complacent.

And unfortunately, the best way to broaden market appeal is to dumb the thing down... which is the very thing that will alienate pro users.

I dunno... just throwing out ideas. But, they've got to be feeling the heat. This situation requires a paradigm shift, IMO.


Edited to add: Don't get me wrong, I'm loyal to DP. I'm not planning on buying Logic unless/until DP goes the way of the Dodo, and there's no alternative. DP does everything I need to do, and it does it to my satisfaction. Likewise, I'm not planning on upgrading to Final Cut Studio 2 either (unless the only way to use V3HD or AJA IOHD, etc. is with FCP). My Avid and Adobe apps do everything I need, and are faster, easier, better, more professional...


.

Jim, my copy of Logic Studio arrives today unles FedEx gets lazy. So I'll soon have a more informed opinion on all this, but at this time I've been through the roller coaster ride at least once, only to learn that like most roller coasters, it arrive back where it started. I think Apple created an amazing ride, but ultimately the value just does not trounce DP the way people initially think it does. Sure, everyone's going to buy Logic Studio, especially Garageband adolescents looking for that next stage of a musical life. But for the past 5 years, they've been doing that anyway. That's really nothing new; it's just a price break for them. Everyone else is going to buy Logic just for the bargain-thrill. That includes me. Once they work in Logic for a while, people are going to find things to like, but they're also going to be maddeningly frustrated by the features they miss in DP. First-time DAW owners will eventually want to see what else is out there. I think DP will still have its niche market.

Next, consider that DP already sells for the same price is Logic Studio. All MOTU really needs to do is to come up with some value enhancers. First, they need real killer plugins that compliment its Masterworks EQ. Nothing in Logic compares with MW EQ. MOTU will come up with the plugins it needs to sweeten the deal. MachFive2 contains some great internal plugins, and lots of them, already optimized for MAS. If they can move those into DP, with nice interfaces, then DP will be equal to, if not superior to Logic.

That leaves instruments. MOTU could bundle a slightly stripped down version of MSI, Ethno, MX4, and/or MachFive2. Or they could bundle the full version of at least one of them. That would make DP one of the most formidable packages out there.

Oh, and not to forget: MOTU could probably win this battle with just these additions: consistency, stability and speed. If there were no broken features, if the app normally ran without any crashes, and if it ran in the ballpark of Logic's speed, then the race would be theirs.

Maybe they'll come up with something entirely new and different. But one thing we know: MOTU's been facing a predatory field of competitors for 25 years, and it is the only original Mac developer left standing. They've been dodging bullets the entire time, and I have no doubt that they will dodge this one, too. They're still here for one reason: they're great at what they do.

Shooshie

[zaster]

Shooshie-
Here's a cool link to get a handle on the deceptively complicated MIDI Transformer. (You have to "make your own" of a lot of functions DP offers in the Region menu for MIDI.) In case the manual's chapter on it causes you to glaze over like it did me:
http://logicquicktips.blogspot.com/2006 ... art-1.html

Go to the blog's home page to link to subsequent chapters of the tutorial.
(It's written for Logic 7, but most of the new Transform is identical.)

[sdfalk]

1.Update Quickscribe
2.Give the strip silence command a preview window
3.Give the normalize command some options
4.Offer a few more control surface presets
5.Make MMC a bit more intuitive
6.Assign MIDI controllers to ANY plugin parameters
7.Allow for alternate frame rates for sync 23.976 as an example
8.(personal fave of mine) update Polar


A few things I can think of aside from everything else people
have mentioned.

[James Steele]

Oh, and not to forget: MOTU could probably win this battle with just these additions: consistency, stability and speed. If there were no broken features, if the app normally ran without any crashes, and if it ran in the ballpark of Logic's speed, then the race would be theirs.

These are exactly my thoughts as well. They could add little else than this and the app has so many unique points of appeal on its own, that if it was screaming fast like Logic, this discussion would be irrelevent, because I think the main driver causing users to consider switching is the performance difference.

[emulatorloo]

One thing motu will probably have to deal with is sound quality for ITB mixing. There's a file comparison over at Gearslutz - the same song mixed in DP and L8, and the L8 file sounds more open - less dark and muddy. Could be a fluke, or could be L8 has a more open sound. We shall see.

weird because if you go to the thread -- the guy doing the comparison writes:

here is the file and my comments after another listen to the mixes:

- DP has more depth and definition on the mids/hi-mids.
- Logic has more highs (not a good thing in this particular case, IMHO) and more punch.
- Logic's mix is also louder, sounds more compressed than DP's.
- Logic seems to have a little wider image, but I could be fooled by the hi-end more pronounced.

To me that sounds like DP "wins"

At anyrate I agree that much has to do w skill -- the OP is a DP user.

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