22/8 time?

[AlMacMeister]

Does anyone know of any songs that have 22/8 in the time signature by any chance???

The reason I ask is that a while back somebody said (and I hope it was here on unicornation, otherwise I'll feel like a big dummy) that their favourite time signature was 22/8 for jazz. Or something like that, I can't remember exactly. I was just wondering if the person who mentioned that (or anybody else) might be able to recommend some songs to listen to that have 22/8 time in them if they know of some off the top of their head. I love odd time signatures/time changes/syncopation and listen to a lot of prog rock and some jazz and would love to hear 22/8 in action. It sounds very intruiging!

And since I'm just a hack, here's where I prove my ignorance on the topic. What makes it 22/8 as opposed to two bars of 11/8? Is it something to do with the accents? I studied classical guitar for 8 years, but never got into that kind of theory stuff in detail.

Thanks for any and all advice!

[FMiguelez]

And since I'm just a hack, here's where I prove my ignorance on the topic. What makes it 22/8 as opposed to two bars of 11/8? Is it something to do with the accents? I studied classical guitar for 8 years, but never got into that kind of theory stuff in detail.

Thanks for any and all advice!

Hard to tell. The thing is that such a large TS can be arranged in SO many ways! It depends on the phrasing, patterns, etc.

I don't remember off the top of my head, but I'll let you know if I find some.
Bartok,perhaps. Liggeti, for sure.

Oh, but I see you want songs... hmmmm. I'll see what I can find.

Anyone else?

[cuttime]

Bulgarian music. Nothing has more complex time signatures than Bulgarian music. Back in the seventies, trumpeter Don Ellis had a Bulgarian pianist whose name eludes me, and his big band/Jazz numbers included some of the head scratching, mind twisting time signatures played with beautiful fluidity. If you can track down any of his recordings ("Tears of Joy" is a good place to start), I think you will find them fascinating.

[Frodo]

For the most part, you'll find that the practical use of such an odd meter is to break it up a 22/8 into smaller measures. In truth, very few if any musicians will want to spend most of their energy reading a chart in 22/8 where it distracts from the music itself.

Just counting that off would be a nightmare-- and where one might just count off a fraction of a 22/8 bar to get the thing going, it already becomes an indication that the need for smaller measure groupings serves a much more practical purpose. I mean-- who wants to get to beat 19 and get lost?

Musicians reading such a chart would be forced to mark smaller divisions anyway, so why not just give it to them from the git-go?

I would ask the person exactly why 22/8 is his favorite and would press him further to suggest the he cite some examples of other works in that meter.

If the tune is only for listening purposes, then it really doesn't matter what the meter is to the listener.

[npatton]

It seems that when I've listened to (or played) music in "odd" time sigs, it's worked better to break things up into shorter and longer "beats" (i.e., groups of 2 and 3 beats).

Some of the music on the Riverdance soundtrack is a great example of this, and it's easy to find. I've spent plenty of time counting out what the heck they're doing, and I usually find they're feeling these in repeating patterns of two and three beats (2+2+2+3 / 2+2+2+3 OR something like 2+2+3+2 / 2+2+3+2). (If I recall correctly, some of Bartok's Mikrokosmos pieces actually break things up like this in the TS.)

A time sig can then be found when you find where the pattern repeats, and figure out how many "twos and threes" there were and then do the math.

A sig like 22/8 probably would require a very complex pattern of 2- and 3-beat groupings, with no repetitions of the pattern before you reach 22. Thus it probably won't be grouped like two sets of 11/8, because you might as well just call it 11/8 in that case.

Once you get past 7 or 9 beats per measure, the exercise gets a bit pointless, and it's easier for your musicians to just have the TS change per measure. As Frodo said, who wants to lose count at 19?! (Thus you could have a set of measures as follows: 7/8, 5/8, 7/8, 3/8=22/8 ).

Actually, I can hear a pretty good groove on that...

(Why did I just post all this? I guess I get a kick out of this stuff. Carry on...)

[AlMacMeister]

such a large TS can be arranged in SO many ways! It depends on the phrasing, patterns, etc.

I guess that's kinda the way I always "understood" it, in that a lot of it depends on where/if a phrase repeats

Bartok,perhaps. Liggeti, for sure.

I have never heard of Ligeti until now. I looked up some info on him. It was interesting to find out that some of his music was used in several Stanley Kubrick films. Some of his techniques that were mentioned sound very interesting (micropolyphony and his use of African rhythmic techniques). I'll have to listen to some of his works. Thanks for pointing him out!

[AlMacMeister]

Bulgarian music. Nothing has more complex time signatures than Bulgarian music. Back in the seventies, trumpeter Don Ellis had a Bulgarian pianist whose name eludes me, and his big band/Jazz numbers included some of the head scratching, mind twisting time signatures played with beautiful fluidity. If you can track down any of his recordings ("Tears of Joy" is a good place to start), I think you will find them fascinating.

I did a quick look on iTunes (of all things) and lo and behold they had some of his albums. I didn't see Tears of Joy there, but there was an album called Live in 3 2/3 /4 time, which (from the samples) sounds WICKED! Any album with a synopsis that says "perfectly coherent solos in ridiculous time signatures" is for me! I got almost giddy just listening to the previews. Thank's for pointing that out. I'll have to check into some Bulgarian music (maybe the local library?...) Many thanks!!

[AlMacMeister]

...the practical use of such an odd meter is to break it up a 22/8 into smaller measures. In truth, very few if any musicians will want to spend most of their energy reading a chart in 22/8 where it distracts from the music itself.

it's... better to break things up into shorter and longer "beats" (i.e., groups of 2 and 3 beats).

Musicians reading such a chart would be forced to mark smaller divisions anyway

So it seems it's a bit of a discretionary thing on the part of the writer then if I understand correctly? So that a particularly long phrase could be written in a large TS or with multiple TS changes, but it would depend on the actual music? Would accents come into play here? By that I mean, if there's a note, say in the middle of a bar of 9/8 that had an accent, would that make it feel like it should be at the beginning of a new measure (and thus a TS change)?

If the tune is only for listening purposes, then it really doesn't matter what the meter is to the listener.

Good point. Actually, I often find that as a listener, the song is (for me anyway) most entertaining when I don't know (or can't follow) the changes. The feeling of getting "thrown around" by the beat is almost magical! But I find the magic diminishes once the music has been overly analysed. Surprise is good!

Thanks for the replies!

[AlMacMeister]

A sig like 22/8 probably would require a very complex pattern of 2- and 3-beat groupings, with no repetitions of the pattern before you reach 22. Thus it probably won't be grouped like two sets of 11/8, because you might as well just call it 11/8 in that case.

Yes, I think I've always approached it by looking for the repetitions in the pattern, but I've never actually been sure that that was how others approached it.

...Once you get past 7 or 9 beats per measure, the exercise gets a bit pointless...

Hmmm..good point

Why did I just post all this?

It's much appreciated in any event! Thanks!

[nickysnd]

I have never heard of Ligeti until now. I looked up some info on him. It was interesting to find out that some of his music was used in several Stanley Kubrick films. Some of his techniques that were mentioned sound very interesting (micropolyphony and his use of African rhythmic techniques). I'll have to listen to some of his works. Thanks for pointing him out!

His Etudes for piano are a good place to start - they are sheer masterpieces, each of them - and fairly easy to read (yet quite hard to play). You will find some unusual uses of time signature there. Ligeti is one of my favorite "serious" composer, along with Shostakovich - maybe because they are both so funny and serious in the same time. Another suggestion: start with Ligeti's latest works (80s-90s), before you get to the 60s-70s stuff. For example, try the Violin Horn and Piano Trio, the Nonsense Madrigals (extremely entertaining!) the solo Viola Sonata, the Hungarian Rock for Harpsichord (!). Personally, from Ligeti, I have learned a lot about the (un)importance of time signatures - now I think that they have very little to do with the music itself - they are mostly helpers for performers. Music is a continuum. Bars are just graphic conventions, just grid lines so the performers don't get lost. The best performers I have heard were those who played music as if they have never seen a bar line.

That 22/8 time signature was obviously a joke. Of course, there are cultures that use such divisions, like Hindu traditional music - but I think one has to be trained within that culture in order to be able to manage those rhythmical complexities.

[Frodo]

So it seems it's a bit of a discretionary thing on the part of the writer then if I understand correctly?

Correct. It's more idiosyncratic than practical.

However, there is much to be said about how note groups in a score would be beamed or how phrase marks are employed which help the eye greatly.

So that a particularly long phrase could be written in a large TS or with multiple TS changes, but it would depend on the actual music?

Yes and no. One could rescore a movement of Beethoven in one single measure and theoretically the end result would be the same except where general usability of the score would be concerned. Another example would be if you were to move into an open floorplan warehouse apartment. You really wouldn't want your bed so close to the dining table or your toilet so close to the refrigerator without something between them. Visual and mental compartmentalization play important roles in all cases where a wall or barline can make all the difference.

Would accents come into play here? By that I mean, if there's a note, say in the middle of a bar of 9/8 that had an accent, would that make it feel like it should be at the beginning of a new measure (and thus a TS change)?

Not necessarily. There are syncopations to consider-- hemiolas, for example, are best understood as three-note or three-beat patterns are played across a series of beats otherwise divided into twos or fours. It's the mental awareness of the meter that enhances the experience until such time the down beats coincide again. It would depend entirely on the music and the desired effect where to draw the barline.

With pop and jazz, there are "pushes" where downbeats are anticipated an eighth or sixteenth ahead. To put a 16th-note push on a downbeat, for example, and then to compensate by then writing a 17/16 bar is not only confusing, but it defeats the purpose and charm of this type of syncopation (where the meter would be in 4/4).

Modern classical music is another story entirely-- there is less perceived regularity, so how the composer chooses to organize his score's barlines is entirely discretionary.

You might want to look at some of the scores of George Crumb just for the fun of it!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/2/1659162_a6bd18e20a.jpg

http://www.societymusictheory.org/mto/i ... mple11.jpg

http://www.lunanova.org/CelloET/images/Hno6.jpg

http://growabrain.typepad.com/growabrai ... _crumb.gif

http://www.karaev.net/images/music/crumb_page32.jpg

[npatton]

Personally, from Ligeti, I have learned a lot about the (un)importance of time signatures - now I think that they have very little to do with the music itself - they are mostly helpers for performers. Music is a continuum. Bars are just graphic conventions, just grid lines so the performers don't get lost. The best performers I have heard were those who played music as they have never seen a bar line.

Very true! When I have new teen or adult students (with whom I can communicate on a more complex level), I explain measures, barlines and time signatures this way. They are merely tools to help us get to the music, not the music itself. Young music students have a tendency to pause at barlines or at the ends of staves. I have to repeatedly remind them to "play right through" as if the barlines were never there. They should only help us visualize the timeline of the music in relation to itself.

OTOH, if they can't get a grip on measures and barlines at first, their music becomes meaningless and random. Most music, from almost any culture, needs some sense of pulse to carry the music forward, even in the rubato-rich music of 19th Century Western music. In fact rubato itself is meaningless unless it has something to vary from (i.e., pulse). An interesting tension of ideas and concepts!

Fun stuff...

[cuttime]

Don Ellis' Bulgarian pianist was Milcho Leviev.

[Rick Averill]

I believe in giving the listener more. So from now on, I'm writing in 23/8.

[AlMacMeister]

Another suggestion: start with Ligeti's latest works (80s-90s), before you get to the 60s-70s stuff. For example, try the Violin Horn and Piano Trio, the Nonsense Madrigals (extremely entertaining!) the solo Viola Sonata, the Hungarian Rock for Harpsichord (!)

much 'preciated (better than chosing randomly!)

The best performers I have heard were those who played music as if they have never seen a bar line.

I've been accused many times of playing like I'd never seen a barline too...although it weren't no compliment!

That 22/8 time signature was obviously a joke

Very possible. It was just mentioned as a side comment and it got me curious. Wouldn't be the first time a joke flew over me head!

You really wouldn't want your bed so close to the dining table or your toilet so close to the refrigerator without something between them. Visual and mental compartmentalization play important roles in all cases where a wall or barline can make all the difference.

LOL! That's a great way to explain it!

You might want to look at some of the scores of George Crumb just for the fun of it!

Wow!! A circular score, a spiral score..talk about creative. In most of those examples, there are no time signatures or barlines either. Fascinating. I have so much to learn. It really is often true that there are no rules in music. Thanks for taking the time to explain!