Name That Tune Syndrome

Phil O · Post by **Phil O** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:47 am

Someone posted a few days back asking about inspiration/writer's block. I have a similar problem but it's not from a lack of inspiration.

Remember "Name That Tune?" - "I can name that tune in 2 notes." - That's my problem. As soon as I get a couple of notes on paper it reminds me of a song that starts with that interval and Bam! It's stuck in my head. Can't seem to get past it.

Anyone else ever have that problem? Is there any hope?

Phil

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:42 am

Happens to me all the time. Sometimes I can escape from it, sometimes I have to go with it in the interest of time where deadlines are at play.

Fortunately, two notes do not a song make. Where intervals present problems, I try to get creative with harmonies and harmonic progressions which can be more easily be placed in stark contrast to any iota of familiarity associated with intervals which may "strike a chord", so to speak.

Rick Averill · Post by **Rick Averill** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:33 pm

Considering there are only a limited number of intervals available, and some of them are not easily singable, your first two or three notes are very likely to be the same as some other song.

Consider "West Side Story." Two (count 'em, 2) songs from that one show begin with an ascending augmented 4th followed by an ascending minor second: "Cool" and "Maria". One would hardly confuse the two tunes.

It's how you treat them harmonically (as Frodo has said), as well as rhythmically. Also what you follow them with.

Much of it is up to your judgement. If you really think the tune sounds too much like something else, then it probably does. In the end, it will probably have to be settled in court, after you've spent your life savings on legal fees. But don't let me discourage you.

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:53 pm

Rick Averill wrote:...
Consider "West Side Story." Two (count 'em, 2) songs from that one show begin with an ascending augmented 4th followed by an ascending minor second: "Cool" and "Maria". ...

OK, I'll jump in here as well. How about "There's a Place for Us"? Anyone ever hear of Beethoven's 5th Piano Concerto slow movement?

How about the old Johnny Carson theme? Anyone ever hear measures 35 and 36 of Beethoven's Waldstein Sonata. Don't change a thing except start them a 16th note later at an Allegro. (How much did Paul Anka (sp?) make in royalties on a PD theme?

Memories from CATS! Take a listen to Ravel's Bolero.

No, you cannot escape the limitation of our limited vocabulary as composers. But you can always find a way to say it in your own dialect, and THAT is where the craft comes in.

Rick Averill · Post by **Rick Averill** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:00 pm

Leonard Bernstein wrote an entire book on the subject, "The Infinite Variety of Music." Haven't read it since about 1960, but I remember he discussed the subject well. You can pick up used copies at Amazon.com.

HCMarkus · Post by **HCMarkus** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:42 pm

How about when you give an otherwise perfectly good song a funny soundalike name, thus ruining the song for all eternity in your own mind? Then again, Wierd Al mde a career out of this practice...

Phil O · Post by **Phil O** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:12 pm

Yeah. I hear what you're all saying. This is the worst "block" I've ever had.

Most of my writing is actually arranging, but I do dabble in originals as well. I'm self taught and have studied privately for a few years with a successful Hollywood composer (name withheld). He says I listen to too much crap, that what I need is a steady diet of jazz for a while! He could be right, but it still sucks.

Phil

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:27 pm

HCMarkus wrote:How about when you give an otherwise perfectly good song a funny soundalike name...

Or worse (IMO) when some ego driven modern or ballet dancer uses a perfectly good pice of music for a perfectly bad dance. THAT can really ruin a piece for me for a long time to come (unless I walk out of the conert - which can save one YEARS of grief!)

MM

aafarr2 · Post by **aafarr2** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:41 am

This happened to me just yesterday when I was arranging for a small orchestra ensemble to accompany an already written voice and piano piece (not written by me). The piece (agian, not written by me) is in the same-ish key and mode as a good majority of Giacchino's LOST scores, which I love dearly. So little by little, I would accidently pile dissonances or strike chords, or even manuvure a melody that would sound a little too much like something from LOST. It was kinda frustrating, but it was a little fun trying to completley avoid sounding like Giacchino even when the key, mode, chords, and some of the piano melodies sound are identical to something from LOST. (for those interested, the 2 major pieces with the same theme that employ the said key and mode and such are "Parting Words" and "The Gathering" from Lost soundtrack 1 and 2 respectivley. The theme used in those tracks, and perhaps 2 or 3 others, are always in this key, and they appear in quite a number of episodes).

David Polich · Post by **David Polich** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:32 pm

Copyright laws do not protect arrangements or chord progressions.
With respect to music, they protect media recordings, lyrics, and melodies.

That is ALL that is protected.

Good grief, don't worry about whether your chord progressions or even your arrangement sound like someone else's. If chord progressions could be copyright-protected, then no one could ever write another song using a I-IV-V progression. Actually, no one could ever write another song.

The copyright law doesn't even extend to sound-alike recordings. So if you can't get Led Zeppelin to allow you to use a sample from one of their tracks, you can just make a sound-alike of it. Or, let's say you're working with a songwriter, and they want to re-record a song of theirs that is on an album owned by some other label. Zero problems - you just re-create the sound of the track again - with good ears, playing chops, and today's software, not hard. The label can do absolutely nothing about it. As long as the writers get their share, there are no copyright problems.

I can't name how many pop "hits" just blatantly cop the chord progressions and even arrangements from other hits. As long as the producers are smart enough, they can superimpose new melodies or invert a few notes here and there, just enough to avoid being sued. I watched the movie "Cuffs" the other day - the "theme" was "almost" note for note stolen from the "Axel F" theme from "Beverly Hills Cop". I mean, pretty much straight out, right down to the Oberheim synth sound.

There's a Sammy Hagar-era Van Halen album that opens with Sammy doing the "Helloooh, Bay-bee!" vocalization from the old Big Bopper hit "Chantilly Lace". It's not a sample of the original recording - therefore, Van Halen didn't infringe on the copyright.

It isn't just pop music - how many classical melodies and progressions did John Williams steal? Plenty. How many bossa nova songs use the same progressions? How many country hits owe their success to previous rock and roll hits?

People often point to the classic court case involving George Harrison's song "My Sweet Lord". The owners of the copyright for the 60's hit "She's So Fine" sued Harrison, and he lost. But the court ruled that it was the MELODY that was too close to the original song - not the chord progressions.

I say relax - just keep on composing. You'll add enough of your own stuff to all your tracks that it won't matter where the chords came from anyway.

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:09 pm

Frodo wrote:Fortunately, two notes do not a song make.

I guess you've never heard anything by Iggy Pop, then?

buzzsmith · Post by **buzzsmith** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:40 pm

David Polich wrote:The copyright law doesn't even extend to sound-alike recordings. So if you can't get Led Zeppelin to allow you to use a sample from one of their tracks, you can just make a sound-alike of it. .

Very interesting stuff...but didn't Bette Midler win a multi-million dollar settlement a few years ago against Ford Motors, if I remember correctly, for using a Bette "sound-alike" for a commercial that she declined to do?

FWIW: http://www2.bc.edu/~yen/Torts/Midler.pdf

Buzz

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:57 pm

buzzsmith wrote:
David Polich wrote:The copyright law doesn't even extend to sound-alike recordings. So if you can't get Led Zeppelin to allow you to use a sample from one of their tracks, you can just make a sound-alike of it. .
Very interesting stuff...but didn't Bette Midler win a multi-million dollar settlement a few years ago against Ford Motors, if I remember correctly, for using a Bette "sound-alike" for a commercial that she declined to do?

FWIW: http://www2.bc.edu/~yen/Torts/Midler.pdf

Buzz

Different issue. Cases like Midler's are closer to "trademark" cases, as was the Sinatra case that was also cited in the PDF. Similar cases are still being brought by the heirs of silent stars, who's works are clearly PD. But their IMAGE is a protected trademark and their families jealously guard those images.

As far as "just do what Zepplin does," as long as the underlying material you are copying is PD, your safe from infringement claims (if not trademark claims). If the material you are copying is copyright, you still need to get a license from or pay mechanicals to (in the case of distribution) the copyright owners.

I have always found it short sighted of advertisers and artists to fall back on the old tried and true. The very reason some of the old tried and true is so famous is that it broke new ground in it's day. More of that kind of spirit (IMO) is sorely needed in the worlds of advertising and the music industry in general.

buzzsmith · Post by **buzzsmith** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:58 pm

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:
buzzsmith wrote:
David Polich wrote:The copyright law doesn't even extend to sound-alike recordings. So if you can't get Led Zeppelin to allow you to use a sample from one of their tracks, you can just make a sound-alike of it. .
Very interesting stuff...but didn't Bette Midler win a multi-million dollar settlement a few years ago against Ford Motors, if I remember correctly, for using a Bette "sound-alike" for a commercial that she declined to do?

FWIW: http://www2.bc.edu/~yen/Torts/Midler.pdf

Buzz
Different issue. Cases like Midler's are closer to "trademark" cases, as was the Sinatra case that was also cited in the PDF. Similar cases are still being brought by the heirs of silent stars, who's works are clearly PD. But their IMAGE is a protected trademark and their families jealously guard those images.

\I have always found it short sighted of advertisers and artists to fall back on the old tried and true. The very reason some of the old tried and true is so famous is that it broke new ground in it's day. More of that kind of spirit (IMO) is sorely needed in the worlds of advertising and the music industry in general.

I agree...seems like more and more ads are using existing music (a la Geico's Caveman-airport scene with RÃ¶yksopp's "Remind Me"...have to admit, though, that it works!)

I've done lots of admusic, but i see the strengths and weaknesses in using previously recorded, non-specific music for positive brand awareness.

Buzz

aafarr2 · Post by **aafarr2** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:48 pm

Frodo wrote:Fortunately, two notes do not a song make.

Tell that to the John Cage estate.