DP vs Logic for VI Hosting

[emulatorloo]

I for one would love to know if anyone has had luck using Logic Express as a VI host (on the same machine) and routing that to DP. (I've only tried it with Bidule with some pretty decent results.) Do you have to use Jack or the like to do it with Logic?

I think we covered that one around June 12 -- see carrythebanner's posts

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21048

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[zaster]

I think we covered that one around June 12 -- see carrythebanner's posts

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21048

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You are right- I went and searched for that after I posted in this thread. One thing I've noticed though is that a lot of threads like this (also with Bidule, Soundflower, etc) are people saying they're getting these things to work, but we don't seem to hear much in the way of what's proven reliable in someone's workflow, something they actually stick with after the initial "getting it to work". So still, if someone's really working this way day to day, hosting within Logic as an alternative to having it all in DP- and not just to run the Logic instruments, but with VIs that could also be run in DP- I'd like to hear about it.

[toodamnhip]

...when loading a large VI session it is not clear when instrument sample loading is completed. Logic is obvious.

The only indication DP gives you (that I know of) is the MIDI input text will change from italics to regular once all samples are loaded.

Good luck with your research.

HEre's what I do to know when DP is ready...

It is NOT difficult.
I Click the stop button.
Why stop? Becasue it will not risk a crash by hitting play and trying to FORCE DP to play VI's the instant they are on.
Why stop?

Because after I hit it, I watch for it to darken. The moment the stop button darkens or depresses, I know DP is online.

Just hit stop a sec or two after DP shos on the screen and watch for the button to depress.

[toodamnhip]

Ah, now come on.

I'm sorry if what I say comes across as uselessly negative; that's not my intention at all - I can tell you I *geniunely* want DP to work for me because I love everything else about it. Really I do. I've registered on this fantastic site to find out what other people are saying about the issues I mention and to learn whether there are things I can do to sort it out. I'm not going to deregister, and I'm going to keep an eye on things for a while.

Walking away from the software for now happens not to mean forgetting about it entirely.. I just have a big project on at the moment that I was hoping that DP would be great for, but it's not to be (for now at least).

I'm hoping there'll be a fix some time in the future, that's all.

Adrian

I was not mad at you dude...I liked what you said and hate when people get all paternal about DP when there is the slightest criticsm

[kelldammit]

well, another thing to note insofar as the original topic is that logic's own vi's are what get you the most marked improvement. i can still kick the crap out of even logic using my vi's of choice...
there is a difference, but on a more level playing field, it's just not THAT much of one.
another trick to maximizing vi use in dp is to sequence in 44.1/16 bit, then bump it up to whatever sample rate/bit depth you want when you start committing to audio...

[toodamnhip]

well, another thing to note insofar as the original topic is that logic's own vi's are what get you the most marked improvement. i can still kick the crap out of even logic using my vi's of choice...
there is a difference, but on a more level playing field, it's just not THAT much of one.
another trick to maximizing vi use in dp is to sequence in 44.1/16 bit, then bump it up to whatever sample rate/bit depth you want when you start committing to audio...

Can you explain more of how you do this vari bit work flow and how it's real world benefits panout and work?

[Shooshie]

2-dam-hip, he just means that until you're ready to start tracking and/or mixing, just work in 16 bits since the response will be faster. Then, when you have to commit data to disk, switch to 24 bits. This works best with VI's that have both 16 and 24 bit capability (all that I know of do), so you leave then at 16 bits until you're ready to track. It probably works even better in DP 5.12, where the program remains bit-rate-agnostic.

Shooshie

[kelldammit]

Can you explain more of how you do this vari bit work flow and how it's real world benefits panout and work?

shooshie beat me to it.
when i start, i often have a dozen or so vi tracks as i move things around, deciding what should be where, and with what instrument. some of them are pretty brutal on the cpu. typically dfhs, msi, several albino3's and blue's, ivory, are in there to start with. i'm only running a first gen macbook, so i don't have the killer cpu's or ram capacity a lot of you guys do...
it's not a real workaround for a lot of folks, obviously, but for those who use vi's predominantly, it's been useful enough for me to throw out there.
i imagine with dp now supporting multiple bit depths, perhaps this could be achieved without having to switch the project's bit depth, but i don't know how this would be done, or if it can be at all. i'll have to look into that. probably time to rtfm for the update...

kell

[motumite]

Why was this thread moved to this forum?

It is not a Theoretical Discussion, nor is it a Gripe, a Petition, or Off Topic.

It is a statement of FACT about the performance of Digital Performer compared with other VI hosting platforms.

By moving it to here you have made it appear to be some kind of vaporous whinings of a delusional person.

[monkey man]

`
My "DP 5.5 Sit-In" thread was also moved here from the DP area.

Perhaps Jimbo's in a "better to be safe than sorry" phase.
After all, both our threads will invariably contain speculation and OT meanderings... hang on... that's normal around here anyway, isn't it?

Frankly I don't get it, but I've learned to trust our shepherd James' judgement; he has our best interests at heart.

[toodamnhip]

2-dam-hip, he just means that until you're ready to start tracking and/or mixing, just work in 16 bits since the response will be faster. Then, when you have to commit data to disk, switch to 24 bits. This works best with VI's that have both 16 and 24 bit capability (all that I know of do), so you leave then at 16 bits until you're ready to track. It probably works even better in DP 5.12, where the program remains bit-rate-agnostic.

Shooshie

Sounds good, but then lets say you have to track a vocal, of course, you switch back to 24 bit, and then what? Comp dies? It is something I will indeed have to try..but it is not a perfect solution

[James Steele]

Why was this thread moved to this forum?

It is not a Theoretical Discussion, nor is it a Gripe, a Petition, or Off Topic.

It is a statement of FACT about the performance of Digital Performer compared with other VI hosting platforms.

By moving it to here you have made it appear to be some kind of vaporous whinings of a delusional person.

Because I felt like it belonged here... that's why? Is that OKAY with you???

Because it is basic performance discussion and in reality it is more about general DP performance versus other platforms. I intend for the DP thread to be more about using DP and solving concrete problems... not just general discussion of performance.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Myself and a colleague were recently shocked to see how quickly we reached CPU overload when running virtual instruments in DP5.12 on a new 8-core mac. The machine was doing no sequencing at all, and was purely used as a Virtual Instrument host, receiving MIDI via an MTP from another Mac running DP5.12 as the sequencing machine. The audio interface on the 8-core rig is a MOTU 828 feeding lightpipe directly into a Digidesign 192 on a 3rd mac running Pro Tools HD.

We had the following V.I. instances:
01. Ivory
02. N.I. B4
03. Kontakt - Orchestra
04. Kontakt - Solo Cello
05. Kontakt - Solo Violin
06. Kontakt - Percussion
07. Kontakt - Tymps

The actual playing was quite modest, yet the CPU performance was peaking into the red and causing audio anomalies.

As an experiment we set up Logic Pro instead, and set up the exact same instruments. Logic was a serious pain in the neck to configure in this mode, but once up and running the CPU usage was barely ticking over. There were no glitches and everything ran smoothly.

Has anyone else been using the 8-core, and if so what kind of V.I. performance have you been seeing?

It has been a while since this has been mentioned, but it is perhaps the single biggest "anomaly" in DP.

Under: Preferences>General>Audio Options in DP there is an option to "show alert when playback overloads the processor." Deselect that option.

In most cases, once you do, the alert box won't show a small spike and playback (or recording) should continue. It is not clear if the reported spike is a function of an actual spike or a perceived spike by the DP engine.Whatever! It is a SIGNIFICANT flaw specific to DP and an important preference issue to be aware of.

Of course, this may not solve your problem, but I suspect it will. If not (and I hope I am not duplicating anything in the thread) check the Apple Activity Monitor to see what your CPU usage is according to the system. If you track it, I bet you'd see that the Mac is NOT reporting excessive CPU usage. Digital Performer is the ONLY program I know that has this issue.


MM

[motumite]

Why was this thread moved to this forum?

It is not a Theoretical Discussion, nor is it a Gripe, a Petition, or Off Topic.

It is a statement of FACT about the performance of Digital Performer compared with other VI hosting platforms.

By moving it to here you have made it appear to be some kind of vaporous whinings of a delusional person.

Because I felt like it belonged here... that's why? Is that OKAY with you???

Because it is basic performance discussion and in reality it is more about general DP performance versus other platforms. I intend for the DP thread to be more about using DP and solving concrete problems... not just general discussion of performance.

There's another thread there now (started by somebody else) about EXACTLY the same subject. You'd better move that here too.

[emulatorloo]

There's another thread there now (started by somebody else) about EXACTLY the same subject. You'd better move that here too.

Actually no, that thread is about something else -- it isn't a logic vs DP thread. At least imho. It is more about setting up a VI host.

At anyrate while I am not as advanced user as you,

but I am still not so sure that you need to instantiate FOUR instances of Kontack to accomplish what you are needing (some premixing I believe)

If I remember correctly each instance of Kontakt has 32 outs.

I am by no means a Kontakt expert but it seems you could probably use a single instance of Kontakt's multiple outs assigned to multiple DP aux tracks.

If that doesn't help there is always logic.

Best of Luck.

As to the location of your thread, I don't want to speak too much for James.

However you may not know that James is a private individual who graciously created this site and runs it on spare cash and in his spare time.

It isn't motu affiliated.

So he can pretty much put a thread wherever he wants.

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