Please recommend a GREAT book about rhythmic modulation

[FMiguelez]

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Hello, Mr. Clifford.

That is EXACTLY what I was looking for !!!!

VERY COOL. Thanks a million for that

And thank you for sharing it.

Saludos.

[greeny]

Yes Yes Yes !!!

Thank you mr.Clifford - this is a great invention - Finally a tool which will save hours and hours of calculations and aproximations for the sequencer minded composer/musician - thanks for passing it on.

http://www.caltabiano.net/shareware/com ... tools.html

For me it will come in very handily because ....

..... being a guitarist, the most serious efficient "book" on rhythmic "modulations" is not a published or printed document but the one which opened itself (like a flower) once by chance I became involved (inmersed) in a study and practice of the spanish Buleria - a Flamenco-Groove which contains within itself the core-modulating-rhythmic-key and the heart of all Flamenco dancing and playing.

Please allow me,

The Buleria has a compound meter which consists of two bars of equal length; the first is a six-eight '6/8' bar and the second a three-four '3/4' bar. These two bars (with their inherent accents) alternate continuously, on and on and on... these two bars are as if "glued together" and they must be felt as an entity, a nucleus - in a way a bit similar to the two bar "claves" used in many "latin" styles such as Mambo's, Masacote's, Samba's, Cha-cha-cha's, etc...

However the main and most important difference concerning the "Buleria-groove" is this alternance between the 6/8 and the 3/4 feel - for it (the Feel) must be confortably maintained throughout, and that my friends, is the tricky part which needs a lot of work before it can really sink in: "Rhythmic-Modulation" on the dance floor!

A fluent Flamenco artist can swap at will between the 6/8 and the 3/4 element part of the groove while still breathing (feeling) the continuing underlying alternate pulse and keeping the tempo constant. So depending upon which element (six-eight or three-four) is repeated or repeatedly being stressed the "buleria-minded" musician can fool the listener into any kind of groove: 3/4, 6/8, 12/8, 4/4, 6/4, speeding up or slowing down the feel of music and never losing the "compàs" or the metronomic tempo - the North so to speak!

I've been playing guitar for over forty-five years but have never really felt as liberated as in the past two, since I really got down to physically tackling some of the basic Flamenco guitar techniques, and from there on understand, grasp and nurture the hidden complex groove underneath it all, let alone grow into the infinite amount of derivatives which gradually become apparent and physically possible.

I can only highly, very highly, recommend studying a bit of Flamenco because it will later on brush off into anything one does creatively. There are indeed great books out there but most importantly is to listen to the masters and the young innovators and try to grasp and understand the roots of it all; the various twelve-beats-cycles.

The textbooks and DVD's available here helped me enormously:

http://www.graf-martinez.com/

And here's a wonderful software based flamenco-metronome which handles this alternating pulse very effectively:

http://www.graf-martinez.com/flamenco-metronome.html

The musical-group which sparked my interest and curiosity - started the ball rolling so to speak - is a band from Barcelona called Ojos de Brujo (Sorcerer's Eyes) which plays a form of furious Flamenco-Funk mixed with Hip-Hop. The first time I heard them I thought: Wow! Here are some guys and gals who can play intense James Brown grooves, swing like Santana , serve it up like the very best West-African bands and have you singing along and tapping your foot in no time.... and last but not least, incorporate all the "twelve-beats" intricacies of traditional flamenco rhythms, all into one great set - hats off.

http://www.ojosdebrujo.com/

Youtube also has quite a lot on this band.

Anyway please excuse my rambling, but thanks again for having started this topic about Rhythmic-Modulations for it allowed me to formulate and extrapolate upon a subject which has, as of late, truly captured my musical heart - it's all in the phrasing and in the rhythms.... and for us guitarists, it's all in the right hand and fingers.


Oléee for the modulations: I hope to have sparked in your musical minds a bit of interest in modern 2007 Flamenco.

Cheers folks!

[nickysnd]

The Buleria has a compound meter which consists of two bars of equal length; the first is a six-eight '6/8' bar and the second a three-four '3/4' bar.

You mean like Leonard Bernstein's "America" from West Side Story?

[greeny]

Yip! Pretty much so!

[nickysnd]

I have always thought that 6/8 is a wrong way to call that time signature. That type of measures is binary, like two dotted quarter notes, don't you think so? I mean they don't say 8/8 - they call that either 4/4 or 2/2, so why don't they apply the same principle everywhere? May I call that 6/8 as 2/4. ?

greeny, your Buleria seems to me like a compound measure of five beats, where the first two beats are longer by half value of the next three beats. Would that be wrong to think of it that way?

To a more general level, I don't believe in measures, I do believe in accents. Measures ore only for visual purposes, for "easy" (hmmm...) readability. In reality, when performed, music just uses accents, and not measures. Measures is just another example of theory misrepresenting practice. I have plenty of example of this sort. Actually, I feel like I have learned a lot of theory only to find out that I don't really need most of it, and sometimes has even led me astray about the practice of music. The graphics of music notation often corrupt our way to think music.

[Rick Averill]

No, 6/8 is correct because it consists of two groups of three eighth notes (totalling 6) rather than two groups of two or four eighth notes. If you notated in 2/4 or 4/4, you'd be writing a whole lot of triplets. And it wouldn't give you the same feel. In "America", as well as well as other Spanish pieces (think "Food! Wine! Aldonza" from "Man of La Mancha") you have the distinct feel of two groups of three followed by three groups of two, with the eight note being of constant value.

[greeny]

Yes Nicky... five beats or five accents if you prefer. And I agree with the other point you made that the first two beats are longer than the other three by a factor of 150 percent - mathematically it's correct and therefor the calculator could be an aid for laying down the correct note tempi when modulating the rhythms within a musical piece in the sequencer. But...

The point you are overlooking in your analysis is the fact that in Bulerias these accents are often not even played by the instrumentalist in any sort of academic way; the accents are played only by the foot which is keeping time: Tempo is often medium-fast to extremely Faaaaast ! quarter note160 >> 220 bpm

(6/8 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 (3/4) 1 - and - 2 - and - 3 - and .

Try clapping the hands on all the eighths and tapping the foot only on the accents. First practical variation is to do as above but to leave out the foot accent on the first beat of the second measure but displacing it to the "and" of "one" and keeping the rest intact so it becomes:

(6/8 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 (3/4) rest - and - 2 - and - 3 - and .

Paco de Lucia often uses a foot pattern which leaves out the two accents in the six eight part and displaces the weight in the second part - so the foot pattern becomes:

(6/8 rest - 2 - 3 - rest - 5 - 6 (3/4) rest - and - 2 - rest - 3 - and.

Try tapping that pattern with the foot whilst clapping the hands on all the twelve eights with the regular accents like in the first example

(hand clap) (6/8 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 (3/4) 1 - and - 2 - and - 3 - and .
(foot) (6/8 rest - 2 - 3 - rest - 5 - 6 (3/4) rest - and - 2 - rest - 3 - and.

It becomes a little tricky when combining these two pattern and distributing them over foot pulse and hand clap.

Most of the time the Gitanos use syncopated sixteenth notes as a basic grid for improvisation however in a frenzied performance they subdivide all the way to the microscopic levels of 32nd notes and sixteenth note triplets; most of the grooves or "rhytmic curves" as they call them are often completely filled with syncopated patterns which seem to stretch over the underlying compàs in such a way that the true pulse almost completely disappears however in the "remate" at the end of a musical paragraph the compàs is always closed off and sealed.. Flamenco guitarists utilize all the note values and often weird tuplets as well, 5, 7, 9. With the bulerias the most important thing is to have the compàs in your head and never ever lose it.

Listen to these examples - all Bulerias.

http://www.esflamenco.com/scripts/produ ... mQlty=HIGH

http://www.esflamenco.com/scripts/produ ... mQlty=HIGH

http://www.esflamenco.com/scripts/produ ... mQlty=HIGH




Oléeey!!

[nickysnd]

No, 6/8 is correct because it consists of two groups of three eighth notes (totalling 6) rather than two groups of two or four eighth notes. If you notated in 2/4 or 4/4, you'd be writing a whole lot of triplets. And it wouldn't give you the same feel. In "America", as well as well as other Spanish pieces (think "Food! Wine! Aldonza" from "Man of La Mancha") you have the distinct feel of two groups of three followed by three groups of two, with the eight note being of constant value.

Rick, I think I failed to make myself clear, because I see no contradiction between what you are saying and what I was trying to say. But I think you might have missed the little dot in my question: "May I call that 6/8 as 2/4. ?" By the little dot after 4 I meant a dotted quarter, so by 2/4. I meant "two dotted quarters." Does it make sense now? My point was that the 6/8 measure is binary not ternary and not "sixtuary" (?!), because it has two accents - therefore two beats, and not six beats. Now you see what I mean? I never thought tuplets. So I totally agree with your formulation: "two groups of three followed by three groups of two, with the eight note being of constant value." Replace, in your quote, the word groups with the word beats, and the result will be exactly what I meant: that "buleria" seem to be played in five beats, the first two being 50% longer than the next three. Would you agree with this? Also would you agree that 6/8 is a bit misleading, considering that it is usually played in two beats? A better representation of it would be, IMO, as two dotted quarters (2/4. - well, I would put the dot a little bit upper)

(hand clap) (6/8 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 (3/4) 1 - and - 2 - and - 3 - and .
(foot) (6/8 rest - 2 - 3 - rest - 5 - 6 (3/4) rest - and - 2 - rest - 3 - and.

Greeny, that was awesome! I especially like the example above - it is complex yet symmetrical, and it has at least three rhythmical patterns interwoven. I think we need a music editor for this board... Too bad I couldn't open those links though, my mac doesn't know which application would open asp files. Any suggestion?

[greeny]

I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Concerning the links, RealPlayer opens these music files.

Perhaps another option would be to go to the opening first page of this "flamenco-site" -

http://www.esflamenco.com/esindex.html

Click on "english" and then type in the following names in the "search-box" in the (upper) left corner:

Ojos de brujo > a list of available products appears. Click on the Title "Techari" (their latest CD) > once the page has opened, scroll down towards the partial list of song-titles included on the CD and click on the the first title "Color" (high resolution if you have adsl or cable internet) the song is an uptempo funky buleria with a salsa flavour.

If at this point it does not open the document or you get a message saying you need a bit of software installed in order to hear the clip, the website provides a direct link so you may indeed install the latest version of the required "RealPlayer". Once installed, by clicking upon any song title on this website, the song-title link will automatically open RealPlayer, connect you to the flamenco website's server and thus allow you to listen to the clip. Lots of great music there as well as books and DVD's.

The other titles I had listed as eventual Buleria examples to listen to were the following:

Search > Gerardo Nunez > Album: "Calima" > song 6 "Tarifa"

other and last example:

Search > Tomatito > Album: "paseo de los Castanos" > song 3 "Paseo de los Castanos"


Furthermore there is a lot of relevent information presented on this wonderful website. It takes a while to learn how to navigate in there but it is continuously updated with new items interviews and clips - a treasure-trove for the flamenco afficionado.

Olé!

[Rick Averill]

[quote="nickysnd]Would you agree with this? Also would you agree that 6/8 is a bit misleading, considering that it is usually played in two beats? A better representation of it would be, IMO, as two dotted quarters (2/4. - well, I would put the dot a little bit upper)[/quote]

Leonard Bernstein didn't object; why should I?

Actually I'm not adverse to creativity in notation. I have used the standart comma to indicate a quick breath and a semi-colon to indicate a slightly longer pause, somewhere between the comma and railroad tracks.

Also, one time I was doing a lead sheet for a song that repeated the same chorus between verses that were radically different from one another. I used the term "Branch to A, B, C, D" after the chorus. This is actually a term from basic programming language. What I meant was that after the chorus, the players would go the first time to section A and then back to the chorus. The next time they would go to section B, and so on. They knew what I meant and it worked out fine. This was after I realized that a computer program had much in common with a music score. It's all a roadmap with loops being like repeats and endings being like conditional statements. And there is an End command (fine or double bar line.)

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Leonard Bernstein didn't object; why should I?

Does anyone have the actual score to West Side Story? The vocal selections indicates 'America' in a straight 6/8. The vocal score for Man of LaMancha indicates the same rhythm structure in "Dulcinea" as alternating 6/8, 3/4.

I am not saying that these scores necessarily agree with the composer's score. But often they do. It would not surprise me (nor would it be considered "incorrect") if Bernstein used a straight 6/8 for this. My experience with conductors (in general) is the simpler you can make the score the better. And a straight 6/8 would be much simpler than alternating to a meter with the exact same value.

OTOH, it would also not surprise me to find Lenny using alternating time sigs. In my own works, I tend to stay in a meter that simply requires a different accent,. but retains the same number of beats. But it is a judgement call. In the case of 'Dulcinea' the alternating meter makes more sense due to the lilting quality and relaxed tempo. In a high speed piece like 'America' changing meter every measure might be considered excessive and given that Bernstein was first and foremost a conductor, my guess is he used a straight 6/8.

If anyone has the ACTUAL score, please let us know which he did use. Until then, I am going to assume the vocal selections are correct (not that I ever read they actual notes they provide!)

[Rick Averill]

The full score to "West Side Story" shows the whole song in 6/8 with 3/4 in parenthesis. Except for the verse (Puerto Rico, you lovely island) which is in cut time with lots and lots of quarter and half note triplets.

Another example from Bernstein is his "Chichester Psalms." I'm speaking of the "Adonai" section. I sang this when I was in college (back in the misty eons of time, so I may not be remembering all the details correctly.) I believe it is written in 10/4, with a note as to how it is to be subdivided. I suspect the note was put in by the editor and not by Bernstein. What it boils down to is 3+2+3+2. But it seems to me that the note made it more complicated than that.

As to "Dulcinea", that's a more subtle example than the blatant instance I was thinking of. I had in mind the beginning of the inn (castle) scene where the muleteers are banging out said rhythm on the table with their cups, chanting "Food, wine, Aldonza!"

[Mr_Clifford]

I remember encountering lots of those 6/8 3/4 modulations when playing John Dowland lute pieces, which date from the 1500's. The common practice for those was to put 6/8 3/4 as the first time signature, then let the player work it out from how the notes were grouped/beamed in the bar.

I agree with nickysnd that notation is just a way of notationg music so that players can (hopefully) easily read it and re-produce it. There's always a couple of ways to notate it, and usually the deciding factor is "which way will get me the performance I want?". However the use of denomintors of 8 or 16 generally implies that theres going to be groupings of 3 (ie. 6/8, 7/8, 9/8 etc.) so I think the standard conventions work fine. The use of a dot in time signatures would be problematic in terms of readablilty IMO. But feel free to put it in your own scores - that's how conventions are born.

[FMiguelez]

.

Thank you, Greeny, for your info and examples

There's no doubt, Flamenco music, when played by masters, is just amazing. The rythmic nuances, and the way they play in-the-pocket is just awesome.

Thank you for sharing. Now my girlfriend thinks I'm crazy for kicking, clapping and humming your rhythmic examples

Cheers.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

The full score to "West Side Story" shows the whole song in 6/8 with 3/4 in parenthesis. ...As to "Dulcinea", that's a more subtle example than the blatant instance I was thinking of. I had in mind the beginning of the inn (castle) scene where the muleteers are banging out said rhythm on the table with their cups, chanting "Food, wine, Aldonza!"

You are referring to the "I Come For Love" sequence. Brilliant stuff! So Lenny basically stayed in 6/8 but indicated the "feel." I agree with that approach (and who would disagree with him... Him?

Theater is my first and foremost love and much great stuff happens in theater scores that is so transparent and so natural and so damn complex! Everyone knows 'Send in the Clowns' but damn, if you want to study meter complexities, look at Soundheim. Then again, also look to him for harmonic, melodoic, lyric and dramatic complexity!