Please recommend a GREAT book about rhythmic modulation

[FMiguelez]

Hi.

I been re-studying a few books on modern composition, but they all fall a little short on the rythmic modulation topic (Dallin, Kostka, Persichetti, Ulela)

Any recommendations for a book that you know?

I mean, I understand the concept and everything, so I guess I am actually looking for the math behind it. I SUCK at math (I can hardly add). I suppose there must be some kind of formula to find the "x becomes y", and the tempo relationships. There are a few modulations that are quite obvious, but I can't figure out the numbers for more complex ones.

Any ideas?

Thank you all.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I have admit ignorance of the topic "rhythmic modulation." I've taught rhythm forms and analysis and the subject never came up once in 14 years. The term also does not appear in any of my musical dictionaries and Googling it doesn't really provide more than a few passing references, and no real definition.

I suspect it is probably something that I know by another name, in which case I could probably help. Could you provide a simple, plain language explantion of what you mean by the phase (such as playing 3 against 5 - poly-rhythms, etc.)?

If I dissect your term, it basically means changing rhythms - going from 6/8 to 3/4 or 4/4 to 12/8 (modulation basically meaning to change). Traditionally, modulation means to change keys (not just change chords) so it tends to be a little more specific (although some of the guys around here disagree with that view of key modulation - and they are wrong). I think it was a discussion of the song Layla. Whatever...

So if you can explain it a bit more, I'll try to tackle it.

[Phil O]

I've always felt that rhythms modulate just as keys modulate, but when I've tried to discuss it with other musicians, they look at me sideways. Also a rhythmic "modulation" does not necessitate a time signature change.

I haven't seen this topic thoroughly discussed in any texts though. Somebody out there must have written about it.

Phil

[FMiguelez]

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Thanks, MLC.

It's a technique to change tempo. A note value in the 1st tempo equals a note value (or a different proportion of the beat) in the 2nd tempo.

Elliot Carter does it a lot.
Kostka talks briefly about it in his "Materials and Techniques of 20th Cantury Harmony" book. I'll cite one of his examples:

First tempo is quarter note equals 80 BPM. Then, just before the "modulation" he introduces eight note triplets. Then, the 2nd tempo is quarter note equals 120 BPM, with the 8th notes having the same value.

Or the easiest one: If you are in 3/4, but start grouping the 8th notes in gropus of 3s, it feels like 6/8. The basic pulse of the 6/8 feel (I mean, the tempo) would be slower because now there are 3 8th notes instead of the previous 2.

But if you really want to it can get extremely complex. And it can sound VERY cool. Kostka explains this, but since i suck at math, I don't quite understand how to apply it to any situation. That's what I mean by needing to have a formula to get the numbers right.

Also, Phillip Glass's violin concerto (3rd movement) has a nice example of a simple rhythmic modulation.

Am I making any sense??

Thanks!

[Phil O]

It's a technique to change tempo. A note value in the 1st tempo equals a note value (or a different proportion of the beat) in the 2nd tempo.

I see what you're after now. Let me open a can of worms here by saying there are three things that can change - rhythmic feel (or groove), tempo, and time signature. Am I correct in assuming your talking about tempo only?

Also, didn't the Beatles do that a lot?

Phil

[FMiguelez]

I see what you're after now. Let me open a can of worms here by saying there are three things that can change - rhythmic feel (or groove), tempo, and time signature. Am I correct in assuming your talking about tempo only?

Yes. But from what I gather, the time signature may also change. Since there is a common factor between the 2 tempos, changing the time signature would not affect the feel.
Not only does the tempo change, but actually the rythmic feel changes as well.

[Phil O]

So let's say we're in 4/4 (tempo: 1/4 note=120 bpm) and have a measure (or more) of half note triplets. The pulse of those notes would be at 3/4 the speed of the tempo (i.e., 90 bpm). You could change tempo (and time signature if desired) at this point with a new tempo of 90 bpm and have a smooth transition between the tempi. Is this the gist of what you're talking about? I don't think the math is as tough as you think if I'm reading you right. Just subdivide the beat to the least common denominator. Kinda like adding fractions.

Phil

[Matcher]

Hi FM, there's some related stuff in Vai's tempo mental article, check out my thread for the link.

[FMiguelez]

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Thanks, Matcher. I'll check them out.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

...It's a technique to change tempo. A note value in the 1st tempo equals a note value (or a different proportion of the beat) in the 2nd tempo...

A ha! OK, I understand and it looks like you already have a few answers. I always viewed that technique as a tempo shift or change (and don't usually apply the term modulation to the technique). I also use it fairly often in my orchestral scores and VERY often in my improvisational work (you can hear a sample at the Getty Museum in LA this weekend if you're around here:

As far as the "math" I think a more instinctive approach is better than a studied approach. As long as you know it is coming, you can simply keep the beat steady and count at the critical moment in a new meter. Fact is, once i am playing, I rarely think 3/4; 6/8, 22/8 (one of my favorite meters for jazz). But I think more like: 3; 6; 22; etc. and "feel" the math.

For me, I prefer a more instinctual approach rather than trying to "do the math." I'm sure you could and if you are sequencing, then you really do have to do the math. I don't know the formulas for such changes, but it should be easy to figure out as it gets down to basic division.



I like the way it can keep a listener off balance.

[FMiguelez]

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MLC: See? I knew you knew. It's just the name that threw you off.

So you do that in your performances? You just "feel" it? I bet you're great at the piano. I'll check your site.

I've tried to feel them as well, but to me it's just hard... I can only do the easy ones...

So you are just supposed to find like a common "denominator"? What eludes me is calculating the new resulting tempo...

[MIDI Life Crisis]

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MLC: See? I knew you knew. It's just the name that threw you off.

So you do that in your performances? You just "feel" it? ... What eludes me is calculating the new resulting tempo...

Seriously, you may be making this too hard for yourself. Don't think meter, think pulse. In such cases, the trick is to keep a steady pulse that gets redefined. It is critical in much of classical music as well. Beethoven did this (not that often, but often enough). It is also referred to (in a slightly different version) and is called diminution:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminution

and augmentation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augmentation_%28music%29

Wikipedia isn't the best [;ace to get answers to stuff like this, but it serves our purposes here.

Another technique for elongating a phrase into a proportionately longer phrase is called stretto, although it is a bit more complex:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretto

Aren't ya glad you asked!

[Mr_Clifford]

So you are just supposed to find like a common "denominator"? What eludes me is calculating the new resulting tempo...

You can get DP to calculate it for you. Say for instance you want to have a new tempo where a crotchet (1/4 note) beat now is the same length as a triplet crotchet in the old tempo. Just play 3 triplet crotchets (quantize the attacks and releases so they're exact) in the new bar, then use adjust beats to drag the grid to the notes thereby changing the tempo.

Easy, right?

In Sibelius you can just type in the relationship as a new metronome mark (ie. dotted 1/4 = minum) and it calculates it for you. I don't think DP does that unfortunately - but I could be wrong.

[nickysnd]

I been re-studying a few books on modern composition, but they all fall a little short on the rythmic modulation topic (Dallin, Kostka, Persichetti, Ulela)

Any recommendations for a book that you know?

Rhythmic modulation deals with how to write rhythmically asymmetric music while keeping the notation as simple as possible. If you are more into the practice of it, then I would recommend some Bartok, Stravinsky and especially Messiaen scores. Also, in most Boulez scores you will find interesting rhythmic treatments, like rhythm serialization, etc. If you are more into theory, you will find a little bit of info on this issue of rhythmical/metrical modulation in David Cope's "Techniques of the Contemporary composer." (personally, I found this particular topic a bit superficially treated there, but the book is good, overall) If you are into combining practice with theory, then Messiaen's "Technique de mon langage musical" is the best place to go AFAIK.

[Mr_Clifford]

Hey FMiguelez,

Not sure if you're still following this thread, but I stumbled across this shareware metric modulation calculator.

http://www.caltabiano.net/shareware/com ... tools.html

It might be what you were after.