LEGAL implications of doing this...

[FMiguelez]

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Hello, everyone.

I need your expertise and advice on how to achieve the following, providing it IS legal, and I won't get in trouble, and the proper way (if there's one) to do it.

I am a composer living in Mexico. I do a lot of Jingle writing, and I've done a few TV series, and soap-operas here. For the past months, I've been working hard at my show-reel. I need to market myself more, so I thought it was a good idea to invest time on a great demo-reel.

On the reel, so far, I show some of the best jingles and TV shows I've done. Cool. It's worked great and thanks to my reel I've gotten a lot of new gigs, and my contact base has increased a lot.

BUT, my dream is to score actual movies. I mean, that is what I studied. The thing is that I have not done any music for any movies yet, so I was wondering the implications of scoring my own versions for some scenes from some cool movies I like. For instance, if I take a scene for say, The Matrix, and I do my own version, and include it in my demo-reel, would that get me in trouble?

If so, whose permition would I need to try to get? I don't think I can write to the directors and say: "Hey Larry. Hey Andy. Your movies were cool. Do you mind if I use a few scenes of your trilogy for my demo reel?" I would probable be laughed at. Is there any place to obtain this kind of permissions. Are they absolutely necessary for my demo purpose?

The ONLY purpose for this is to show movie-makers here in my country my film scoring abilities with a few REAL movies. Of course I would not make profits or anything. It would be properly labeled as of what it is: a DVD DEMO (and it's not like they wouldn't know, anyway).


The reason I wouldn't think it is out-of-the-question is because part of my graduating portafolio, fresh out of college, was precisely that: my versions of music for well-known scenes/shows. For instance, I did my version of the opening titles for the TV show Deep Space 9, and many others. Every student had to pick several different cues from shows/movies etc., preciesly for this same purpose. So, unless things have been changed, is it alright to do this?

Would I need to put a "demo" watermark in the video?

What would be your advice regarding this?

It is just that, FINALLY, movie makers are starting to have some impulse in my country. Doing movies here has been almost unheard-of. Until now... And I want to make sure I have material suitable for the ocation, when I start meeting film directors and producers, etc.

How would you guys go about this?

Thank you so much for your advice.

Cheers.

[FMiguelez]

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oooops. I had too many opened forum windows.
I meant to put this in the Music Business forum

Sorry, James

[Jim]

Although technically, it would be a copyright infringement to use The Matrix for your demo, in reality, your exposure would be minimal. Sadly, I know dozens if not hundreds of people who violate copyright without a care in the world. But, other than the well publicized Napster cases, I don't know of anybody who's been prosecuted or sued for copyright violations. And those cases were well-publicized to set an example. Contrary to what the warnings say on films and disks, the FBI doesn't spend a lot of time chasing down copyright violators. That's something that generally is taken to civil court. In civil court, the plaintiff has to prove damages. So, the owner of The Matrix would need to prove that you damaged them financially by copying their picture; and they'd have to convince a jury you did it with malice to obtain punitive damages. Putting a clip on your demo and distributing it among a few people isn't enough of an offense for them to bother coming after you. But, if you do such a great job that some third party decides to put it on YouTube, and it and you become world famous, then you might have a problem.

The fact remains that you can't get blood out of a turnip: Poor people and people of modest means are poor targets for lawsuits. The fact you live in Mexico, and The Matrix owners likely live in the US, that trebles the trouble they'd have to encounter to get you.

I don't want anybody to think I'm encouraging copyright infringement. I'm not. I'm against it when actual harm or loss of profit is caused. One could make the argument that any work you obtain scoring movies is good for the industry in general. But then, just about every questionable move we humans make is accompanied by some rationalization.

Chances are what you describe IS technically illegal. Is it unethical? That's a whole 'nother discussion. And another question for you is whether you want to be known in your industry as an intellectual property creator who doesn't respect the intellectual property rights of others.

And BTW, it's unlikely that Larry and Andy "own" The Matrix. Generally, the "owner" is the studio or distribution company; and the writers, producers and directors are hired guns doing "works for hire", just like you'll be when you get that big movie gig. Good luck!

[FMiguelez]

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Hi, Jim. Thank you for posting.

I always thought that this was an issue if, and only if I made money out of the "borrowing".

As I mentioned above, I've always liked doing things the right way. So, would you have any ideas of how I can do this the right way? How and where would I attempt to get permissons for doing this? Do they even give these permissions?

Also, if this would be part of my demo-reel, I would want to make sure I don't piss people off by doing something illegal! That's one other reason I'd like to do it right. I have to admit that most pertinent people here would not even think about these issues, but you never know.

So I gather that, indeed, it IS technically illegal to do what I want.
It IS a copyright violation.

So, all I can hope for is to get the proper permissions.


On the other hand, if the latter is true, how come my music school in the US did precisely that? All our graduating portfolios consisted of TV/films scored with the student's versions. There was just a watermark indication that it was a student demo, but what confusses me is that I don't think they would've MADE us make something illegal. Not at school, right?
Where does that fit in this picture?



Any ideas?

Thank you.

[Kubi]

It honors you that you are trying to do the right thing. But if you'll try to get permission for rescoring scenes from big studio films, I'm afraid you won't get far. Even if the folks at the other end of the line wanted to help you, they probably couldn't give you permission, because there is simply no mechanism in place (and way too many rights holders involved.)

But remember, pretty much every composer is in direct violation of copyright when he/she burns a demo CDs or puts excerpts of previous film scores online, since almost all film work is now 'work-made-for-hire' and thus doesn't belong to the composer the minute he/she writes it. But allowing artists to demo is common practice. And young composers 'rescoring' other films is almost as prevalent.

So, I'd say, just do it and use common sense. Keep the clips short and don't take too many from one film. Don't put them on MySpace or YouTube, or some other super-hyper-linked site. Instead put the clips on your DVD, and maybe on a separate section of your own website, and mark them clearly as what they are (though it's probably better to not put this online.) If you do put them online, put the film title in an image instead of text, so it doesn't show up on searches (thereby misrepresenting the brand of the rights holder.) Put a link on the same page with your e-mail with a note, to show that you're eager to accomodate anyone who objects. If someone sends you a 'cease-and-desist' notice, just take the clip down immediately. But I doubt you'll get one.

Anyway, this is what I'd do, if I wanted to show my ability by rescoring studio film scenes. Your call, obviously. It is a copyright violation. But so is my own demo, with all my very own film music...

BTW: It's a common misconception to think that if there is no money involved, copyright somehow doesn't apply. The two have pretty much nothing to do with each other.

Also: Schools know as much (or little) about copyright as anyone else... Schools usually think they are covered under the 'fair use' exemption, but that's really not a given.

[Kubi]

PS: That said, I think you're FAR better off simply trying to hook up with young filmmakers and work on shorts and similar ultra-low budget films instead. It will

- showcase what you can do to a low budget film, far more relevant to the low budget film maker than what you can do with a scene that cost more than the entire life-time output of the low budget filmmaker. And chances are, you won't score a Matrix on your first go-around.

- get your chops up as far as working with the filmmaker is concerned, by far the biggest challenge when scoring a film.

- get you not only a score and a film that you can actually claim credit for, but also a relationship with a young filmmaker.

Just an additional thought.

[FMiguelez]

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Hi, Kubi.
Thank you for your answer.

So, in theory, I AM already doing copyright infringements with MY current demo? I'm showing some Jingles and TV shows I've done.

Do you know what? It's so crazy, because until I read your post, I consciouslly understood that, in theory, there is NO difference in showing in my DVD-reel things that I was hired to score VS things I want to compose my music version of some one elses's footage.

So, it does not matter that in the least, does it? It makes no difference if I was the hired composer or just re-scoring a thing. I AM already violating the copyright, right?
So are you

Seriously, so are you teling me that the mere act of putting together a demo reel is, in theory, illegal? Are there no provisions to "lessen" the weight of the law for such things as demos?

In your experience, is this generally looked down upon?

Thank you, Kubi.

[FMiguelez]

PS: That said, I think you're FAR better off simply trying to hook up with young filmmakers and work on shorts and similar ultra-low budget films instead. It will

- showcase what you can do to a low budget film, far more relevant to the low budget film maker than what you can do with a scene that cost more than the entire life-time output of the low budget filmmaker. And chances are, you won't score a Matrix on your first go-around.

- get your chops up as far as working with the filmmaker is concerned, by far the biggest challenge when scoring a film.

- get you not only a score and a film that you can actually claim credit for, but also a relationship with a young filmmaker.

That IS great advice. And a challenge.
I am definitely going to try that route as well.

Regarding the former, what would you think of putting somewhere in the DVD-reel some kind of text explaining what my intentions are, and my email if someone wants to give me a cease and desist notice? It could be a small print, or even do a QT movie as a chapter with that text.

Since contacting the big movie owners would be ridiculously hard, and most likely futile, would that be at least a "nice" attempt from me to kind of straighten things out?

Thank you for your further thoughts.

[Kubi]

Seriously, so are you teling me that the mere act of putting together a demo reel is, in theory, illegal? Are there no provisions to "lessen" the weight of the law for such things as demos?

In your experience, is this generally looked down upon?

Just making a point here. It is absolutely not looked down upon to use your own music in your own demos, even if in theory you are not the rightfull owner of the music anymore, because it was a 'work-made-for-hire.' Every single composer does it all the time, so no worries.

Similarly, as long as you are careful about how you distribute it, I don't think anyone will have a problem if you use a scene from a movie to show your scoring prowess. As long as you use common sense, I think you'll be left alone.

As I wrote, I would think using common sense includes not posting those scenes on YouTube (since you'd have a hardtime controlling the dissemination of it), but instead putting it on your DVD reel only, or maybe on a separate, clearly marked section on your own website. Etc. etc.

So my point was, yes, it is a copyright violation, but so is your demo in theory. In practice, everybody still publishes and dissemniates their demos, and everybody acknowledges it is a necessary practice.

With both your demo and your rescored scenes, just use common sense (i.e. don't post the ad you yourself scored on YouTube either...! But you usually can put it with the visuals on your own website under 'previous projects' or so... many ad composers do. Again, a copyright violation in theory, but common practice out of necessity.)

Ultimately it's your call. This is just what I'd do in your shoes.

[Kubi]

Regarding the former, what would you think of putting somewhere in the DVD-reel some kind of text explaining what my intentions are, and my email if someone wants to give me a cease and desist notice? It could be a small print, or even do a QT movie as a chapter with that text.

Since contacting the big movie owners would be ridiculously hard, and most likely futile, would that be at least a "nice" attempt from me to kind of straighten things out?

Thank you for your further thoughts.

I'd definitely put a small note on there saying that you use these scenes merely for demo purposes, and that you can be contacted at such-and-such e-mail if there are objections. Ideally in a year or two, you won't need to rescore existing films, because you'll have plenty of your own material to show. That's what every filmmaker is going to want to see anyway.

Good luck!

[Jim]

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On the other hand, if the latter is true, how come my music school in the US did precisely that? All our graduating portfolios consisted of TV/films scored with the student's versions. There was just a watermark indication that it was a student demo, but what confusses me is that I don't think they would've MADE us make something illegal. Not at school, right?
Where does that fit in this picture?

Hi. Kubi answered your other questions very well, so I won't repeat them. But, to address the question I quoted above: In US Copyright law, educational institutions are allowed a certain amount of copying under the Fair Use Doctrine.

There's a lot of info about US copyright law, most of which is relatively easy to understand at:

http://www.copyright.gov/

[FMiguelez]

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Kubi and Jim: Thank you very much for your replies.


Kubi: I'll DEFINITELY put your advice into practice. You're right, as long as I'm discreete (no Youtube), and keep that stuff in my DVD reel or web site, I should be ok. I'll also put in the "rescored" scenes some kind of text stating my intentions. If someone has a problem, they could contact me saying so.

Ideally in a year or two, you won't need to rescore existing films, because you'll have plenty of your own material to show. That's what every filmmaker is going to want to see anyway.

That's very nice of you to say . I am so much hoping so (and working hard for it), regarding the actuall films.

Thank you all for your advice and good will

Cheers.

[Timeline]

You might try going to a film show and ask permission to sweeten a few scenes of some show to demo your abilities. Ask if after the demo you can add it to your reel and you would be cool then. They might be B movies but they will at least add to your reel and make a good impression and you cou;d meet people.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Could be moved to the composing forum...?

FM, Infringement is a subject dear to my heart and my wallet. I have brought no less than 6 infringement actions with another 3 or 4 pending this year. One just settled last week.

First of all, you are in Mexico. While there are international copyright laws, I seriously doubt anyone at Paramount or Universal will go after you for a demo reel. If your reel made it on to YouTube or Google Videos, the best, BEST, they can do is have it removed. The golden rule is this; How much money is to be made? After that, you look at whether or not this is criminal infringement for personal gain (in other words - are you SELLING the infringing work?) Clearly, you are not. So in all, I think you are really very safe. Besides, corporate intellectual property lawyers cost about $750 or MORE per hour. Your demo reel is not worth bringing a lawsuit. Nothing personal, you just don't provide a return for the legal investment and you are not damaging the studio release in any way. TECHNICALLY, yes, you are infringing simply by copying. But realistically, you will never get sued for that kind of activity unless it becomes popular in and of itself. Then you become a target.

But consider this: Do you want people to start COMPARING your music to Don Davis' score for the Matrix? Or do you want them to judge it on its own merits? You are much better off with a lesser known work, or as the excellent suggestion above, getting hooked into a new filmmaker who needs a score. Score THAT work and show it off.

Also, for about $15 a clip, you can download stock footage and score it into a demo reel, legally and for basically free!

Here is a sample site:

http://www.freestockfootage.com/

Do a Google search for stock footage.

Another thing you can do is get your hands on some public domain stuff (IE - silent films) or a film like Metropolis (may not be PD). Again, using this stuff in a demo reel is really very safe. Just make sure no one uploads it to YouTube with your name on it! Maybe record a bit of news off TGV and score it? I don't think news footage is copyrightable, per se. (I might be worng about that, but the same issues as above apply).

Basically, however, filmmakers are not necessarily looking at music, they are listening to it. And you don't get scoring gigs based on your taste in films, but rather by the tone of your scores.

Ever notice that Elfman almost ALWAYS sounds like Elfman? Williams like Williams? For that matter, Brando like Brando and Cruz like ••••... I mean Cruz. Movie folk buy based on STYLE. And you can convey style in a CD. You don't need to score it to picture. What you need to get film gigs is to know film people. It is ALL about networking and personal contacts. Resumes and demo reels come in handy, but they don't get you in the door. Coffee and cocktails do. Friendships are best and in many cases, old schoolmates and friends do more for your career than the best resume and demo reel.

[FMiguelez]

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Thanks, MLC, for your thoughts and advice.

Regarding what things REALLY help getting gigs you're totally right. I mean, I've seen proof of it. Lately I've been systematically nurturing contacts, trying to develop meaningful relationships with "the right people", etc., and it definitely DOES work. That has helped me land a few good gigs, and the more I do it the more natural it becomes to me. And the gigs I've been able to get are just ONE side of this. Some of this people have not only become potential gig-opportunities, but also friends. So that's really nice. It's cost me an extra effort to do it because I don't consider myself as having a lot of social skills, but then every time it becomes easier and more natural.
Also, it's good to get out of the studio once in a while

I hope I get past the stage where I still need a demo to get gigs soon (almost there, at least here in Mexico), but I've seen that networking definitely lands more gigs than a nice demo by itself.

Mexico is just starting to have an important Film rebirth now, and I definitely want to be there. You never know who the next Spielbergs are going to be, right?

Anyway, wanting to rescore a few favorite film scenes is probably more of a personal challenge than anything else. So I'll probably go ahead with that, and see what happens.

I'll check out the links you provided as well. Now you got me curious.

Thank you all for great advice. I trully appreciate it.