DP 4.61 / Apogee Symphony performance - NOT GOOD!

bigcityrecording · Post by **bigcityrecording** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:04 am

I recently purchased an Apogee Symphony system with the goal of being able to do everything inside the computer including tracking while monitoring through FX at the lowest buffer setting (currently 64 in DP) which is borderline-acceptable in terms of clients hearing delay/phasing in their phones.

I saw a demonstration of the Symphony system, but it was set up with Logic. It really impressed me with high track counts and a 32 latency setting all while monitoring through tons of FX as a guitar player played live to pre-recorded tracks AND ran his guitar through a guitar modeling plug-in all at 96k!! It sure sold me.

However, I was really bummed when I set up my new Symphony system and could barely get DP to run 5 tracks at 48k, 64 latency, and one altiverb.

Of course, at the demo, they had a 2.66 MacPro and I was using a G5 dual 2.5ghz machine.

So as a test, I installed Logic 7.x and did the same test but at 32 latency. It ran 24 tracks in simultaneous record through FX (including 3 or 4 Altiverbs) and hardly any processor load - all still on my G5.

It was so disappointing to discover this. I could use Logic, but I like DP so much better. For one, I think the GUI is much better, the layout is more "logical", the editing is better.... I could go on and on. It is, of course, just personal preference as there are quite a few people who like Logic.

I do wish MOTU would address this issue because if they don't, I might have to become a Logic user.... arrrrggghhh!!

In my eyes, MOTU needs to:

1. Address the latency buffer issues: implement 32 buffer setting and make sure it actually works.

2. Play more nicely with 3rd party companies such as Apogee. This would only increase the user base of DP and, I think, not really cut into MOTU's hardware sales. (I experienced the same processor overloading with the 424/2408mk3 when monitoring through FX). Prior to this, I have been using Cue Mix and a Mackie d8b - I use the FX on the d8b while tracking and then pull out the UAD and Altiverbs during mixing... It's worked well, but only goes up to 48k.

In my opinion, DP is superior in so many ways to other programs, it's a shame it doesn't integrate well with core audio and other hardware (or their own for that matter)

MOTU - let's fix this!!! Please!!!

Any comments? Any other Apogee Symphony users out there want to chime in?

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:29 am

Well, we discussed this in another thread, but now I see the source of your concerns. You're tracking with Altiverb? C'mon. Who tracks with Altiverb? If your players want some reverb, slap a little MOTU Plate on there. Or even the basic MOTU reverb. I played a lot of tracks in the studio back when I was performing a lot on sax, and the BEST reverb they could patch through while tracking in the 1980s was no better than MOTU's Plate. If your players expect Altiverb while they are tracking, and a channel of it for each member of a quintet, then they're freaking' spoiled! Let 'em learn to be professionals the way all musicians have done until now.

Most people use hardware patch-thru, with Zero latency, and they have a cheap hardware reverb in the chain with their mixer. Sorry, I just find it over the top to expect to use Altiverb while tracking. It's a MIXING plugin.

Geez. I'm starting to feel like a luddite for just being happy that things work as well as they do. Now you've got to have a Virtual Sydney Opera House to track a damn jazz saxophone. Wait... is this reality tv? Is there a camera on me? Ok... come out of the bushes now. I'm hip to the ruse. You were just filming my reaction for a new reality TV show, right?

Shooshie

blue · Post by **blue** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:59 am

I agree that tracking with Altiverb is, shall we say, luxurious. But it still doesn't take anything away from his main point that Logic wipes the floor with DP in terms of efficiency. This is not news, and it certainly hasn't forced me to the other side. But it would be nice if DP was competitive in that regard, dontcha think?

Matcher · Post by **Matcher** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:07 am

bigcityrecording wrote:
However, I was really bummed when I set up my new Symphony system and could barely get DP to run 5 tracks at 48k, 64 latency, and one altiverb.

So as a test, I installed Logic 7.x and did the same test but at 32 latency. It ran 24 tracks in simultaneous record through FX (including 3 or 4 Altiverbs) and hardly any processor load - all still on my G5.

Now that's a difference..wow.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:29 am

blue wrote:I agree that tracking with Altiverb is, shall we say, luxurious. But it still doesn't take anything away from his main point that Logic wipes the floor with DP in terms of efficiency. This is not news, and it certainly hasn't forced me to the other side. But it would be nice if DP was competitive in that regard, dontcha think?

Sure, it would be nice. I said so in the other thread. But it's not going to happen. Period. If you use DP, you've got to have reasons other than beating Logic in the latency game, for that means MOTU has to go head to head against Apple. Don't hold your breath.

Right now, I'm experiencing a version 5.11 that has begun to crash at every turn. Formerly the most stable version ever, it has without rhyme or reason become the most UNstable version ever for me. I'd be happy if MOTU would just get the f__cking bugs out of this thing.

Latency? I'll eat that cake when I can have it, too.

Shooshie

Bowman · Post by **Bowman** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:18 am

Shooshie wrote:
blue wrote:
Right now, I'm experiencing a version 5.11 that has begun to crash at every turn. Formerly the most stable version ever, it has without rhyme or reason become the most UNstable version ever for me. I'd be happy if MOTU would just get the f__cking bugs out of this thing.

Shooshie

Can you elaborate?

Phil O · Post by **Phil O** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:16 am

Shooshie wrote:Right now, I'm experiencing a version 5.11 that has begun to crash at every turn. Formerly the most stable version ever, it has without rhyme or reason become the most UNstable version ever for me.Shooshie

Hate to ask, but are you still using Waves plugins?

Phil

waxman · Post by **waxman** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:58 am

Man Shooshie you are going to need some R&R when you get to port... You went from the top of the mountain to crashing at every turn on your drop... oouch... FYI I am at the top of the mountain as we speak with all my multiple FW issues resolved. Buit now I fear the fall from reading your post.

BTW How is your financing the school going? You must of made some bank to be getting a new G5s and keeping the tuition up! Tip to daughter... call the wallet often and be nice...

Really I want to know do you think it is waves? Do you know why DP 5.11 went south? It may be a curse from all those right posts... sorry that is not funny. Seriously if you can stand the pain would you elaborate on the crashing?

bigcityrecording · Post by **bigcityrecording** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:31 am

Wait a second guys.... I only put Altiverb in there to test what the system was capable of - as a comparison to Logic, etc - to max out the system. I could only get at maximum 1 Alitiverb with DP and many with Logic. But, even if I didn't use Altiverb at all with DP, I could only get a few tracks to run properly with 64 latency at 48k in DP. That's not right...

When I saw the demo with Apple/Logic/Apogee, they were touting how they could track with convolution reverbs AND amp modeling plug-ins while at 32 buffer setting and 96k. It was smooth sailing with very little processor hit.

Now, I admit that altiverb while tracking isn't probably necessary, but amp modeling would certainly be useful while tracking - and it's easily doable with other programs like Logic. I pay good money for DP updates and have for years. DP has touted how it makes full use of the processors, yet with my G5 2.5ghz machine I still get spikes from large sessions I open up from projects I recorded and mixed on a G4. That's not right either... there have always been these performance issues with Performer, just like Logic is not particularl logical to me (no double pun intended... haha)

I'm trying to run a pro studio here without ProTools - why spend $30k??? esp when DP, to me, is much better in its layout, etc...

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:50 am

I don't want to hijack this thread, so I'll start a new thread to discuss the crashing MacPro with DP 5.11. I'll call it something like that.

Shooshie

OldTimey · Post by **OldTimey** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:15 am

Can you post some other specs...what OS version, ram, hard disks etc...

bigcityrecording · Post by **bigcityrecording** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:27 am

OldTimey wrote:Can you post some other specs...what OS version, ram, hard disks etc...

Intitial tests were run with the following gear:

G5 2.5ghz / OS 10.4.8 / 1.5g RAM / DP 4.61 / Latency 64 (dp), 32 (Logic 7) / LaCie 300g firewire 800 ext drive / 2408mk3 + 424 card

additional tests run with swapping out 424 card with the new Apogee Symphony card which improved performance slightly with dp. With Logic, the system was incredible....

hope that helps

I'm hoping that when I get the 3g macpro, the performance will boost up enough to do what I need it to do.... I really don't want to switch to Logic...

bigcityrecording · Post by **bigcityrecording** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:33 am

Forgot to mention:

tests were run at 48k/24bit while recording. I would add tracks until I got constant red spiking. With dp at 64 latency, that happened very quickly - 5 or 6 tracks in. With Logic at 32 latency, 32 LATENCY!!, I was able to do 24 tracks which is the maximum I can record at once and no processor spikes.

additional tests run at 48k/128 buffer for dp - improved a bit, but still some spiking pretty quickly. 256 buffer much better. But 128 and 256 buffer is really unacceptable latency for a professional studio. 64 is borderline. 64 at 96k is 32 at 48k - acceptable....

at 96k/64 buffer, dp was moderately poor - still only several tracks available. Logic, no problem to do 24 tracks w/32 buffer PLUS adding convolution reverbs.

Forget it with dp - one altiverb sent the processor overboard esp at 96k....

dix · Post by **dix** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:38 am

there have always been these performance issues with Performer, just like Logic is not particularl logical to me

This same issue has been a problem for a very long time (forever?). Efficiency has always been DP's number one weak spot in the DAW world. I came to the conclusion a couple years back that this condition is permanent. If the gap could be narrowed I'm sure motu would have done so. I actually became reasonably proficient w Logic before I noticed I was far more productive composing w the pathetically slow, choppy, spikey, outdated code that props up DP. It is a vastly superior product in all respects imo except in this one very, important, way. As a dp user, the key to getting over the constant comparisons to Logic's efficiency is to de-install Logic. Plugin and track counts are not equivalent to productivity. ...that said, i still think it's worth reminding motu whenever you get a chance to continue to warm their molasses-like GUI when possible.

bigcityrecording · Post by **bigcityrecording** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:53 am

dix wrote:
there have always been these performance issues with Performer, just like Logic is not particularl logical to me
This same issue has been a problem for a very long time (forever?). <snip> It's worth reminding motu whenever you get a chance to continue to warm their molasses-like GUI when possible.

That being said, please do send suggestions to MOTU about this efficiency problem. As computers continue to become more powerful and fast, the gap between what dp does and what it should do will widen - means you won't need to compare to Logic.

By the way, I only compared to Logic to see if it worked with my G5/Symphony card or if it was the computer that wasn't performing up to spec..... I wish it was the computer's fault - easy fix: buy a macpro....

MOTUnation.com

DP 4.61 / Apogee Symphony performance - NOT GOOD!

DP 4.61 / Apogee Symphony performance - NOT GOOD!

Re: DP / Apogee Symphony performance - NOT GOOD!