Copyright Law? Are chords entitled to a songwriter's %?

[toodamnhip]

Oh... wait a minute. You're saying HE's suing YOU? How did THAT happen? What's he suing you for? I guess if he's the one doing the suing, then you can't just drop it. Maybe your plan is the best one: have him play his own song. Well, I do wish you luck. When you contribute to a song, you're a partner in its writing. If you did the chords and played them in, that's a major portion of the pie. I don't know why he's suing you, but I think you've got a case.

Shooshie

He wants his master..LOL

[Resonant Alien]

There is a difference between "copyright" and registration. Copyright is automatic when any work is produced in a tangible form of expression - e.g. book, cd, painting, etc.

There are also two forms of copyright related to recorded music. The "circle C" is the person that wrote the song. Singing a vocal line into a tape recorder gives this person immediate ownership of the copyright. The "circle P" is owned by the person who recorded and produced a particular version/performance of said song - even if that person had nothing to do with writing the song. The "P" is usually owned by the record company or producer.

[toodamnhip]

This crap comes up all the time for me. Ever heard of the song "One note melody"? The melody is an F...But the chords are D-7, Db dom 7, C-7/11 etc...The chords make the F mean what it means...annd great writers do that as standard operating procedure in my opinion.

I agree with your thoughts, but you know what, at the end of the day people are going to be singing that little note only, and if someone else commes with a different chord progression still the people will identify the song by that little boring F note that repeats.

So the copyright law is based on melody an lyrics, simply because a song could be harmonized in a million ways. Can you imagine if I say: I will reharmonize all the Beatles songs so now I am a co-writer. On the other hand we have heard many times a catchy tune that uses one of two chords (or none) and is a hit!

So unfortunatelly harmony falls into the arrangement category (which can be copywrited by the way), a lot of producers do it all the time, I do it all the time for example, re-harmonize, change the form, re-touch the lyrics, change the instrumentation, etc. and still it will not necesarilly mean I am a co-writer. I even wrote a 7 minutes orchestra piece based on a brazilian melody, and that was considered (an paid as) an arrangement. This is of course the borderline, it could have been a composition inspired in the melody of ..., but they contracted me for an orchestral arrangement, as that is what I gave them.

The important point is that you can agree with the artist in advance that you can particitpate on the composition of the song by doing the harmonization, and that you want a share, and they can say yes or no, but the law and the advantaje is on their side, or you can do like many other people, charge a flat fee for the arrangement and compose your own songs.

Your examples are good, but they are of finished songs that are re-arranged. WHat about when a guy comes to you, singing in 3 different keys, all over the place, an original song? And you determine major or minor, clarify his effed up melody, and add the whole framework to his music house. To me, I always say this to my clients, if you need something from me that would never leave the song and be needed on the piano to hold the song up, it is part of the SONG> I am not taking aboit arrangment licks and hooks, but the foundation of the actual song..what's your thoughts? Re harmonizing the Beatles is a totally different scenario

[toodamnhip]

Good luck, 2dam, but I've got one beef with you. You didn't have contract beforehand. Without an agreement, it's your word against his. Sure, maybe he can't play it. And you MIGHT win. Power to you if you do. But it's an uphill battle without that piece of paper with your name and his signed at the bottom.

Is this going to be a hit? You looking at big bucks? If not, call it a learning experience and toss it out of your life. Get some contracts printed up and start using them! Make that lawyer work for his retainer for a change!

Shooshie

I have the same beef with me..and will be having new contracts drawn up as this is the 3rd time I have been burned by trusting people to know and do what is right.

I already spoke to my lawyer, it is a grey area and it would come down to a jury deciding whether the contribution colors and effects the meldoy enough to warrant songwriting credit...and thus, we have random opinion..it is a pain in the ass..So I might take it in the shorts, because it is a crap shoot that will not be worth the money, but my lawyer will see what she can do as there are masters desired and more work needed from me which I will not be obligated to do if I do not want to. Funny thing, this happened last yr and the dude re-mixed and brought in an additional producer...it came out like crap.

Truthfully, my opinion is that they lose ME, and that is a big price , but it still sucks because some are so ignorant, they don;t even know what a big price losing my work is.

I always say, if you get great product, prop up the people that got you there...cherish the magic you create with them and don;t squabble over shares, be fair.

I guess the beauty of this world is it's diversity, and that includes, on the bottom of the scale, ignorance..and the ignorant need a road map, and lot's of reminders..and we call those ..CONTRACTS

[toodamnhip]

Isn't the James Bond theme a famous example of this sort of connundrum?

It seems to be all about what you negotiate and agree to in the first place. It's like when those solo singers 'collaborate' with a songwriter and 'co-write' a song. We all know who was really doing the composing but they're happy to let the star have a co-write credit because it's the star that's going to make it a hit.

Good luck man, I hate to hear stories like this when people get greedy and won't give credit where it's due. The main legal sticking point I can see is if he can prove that he hired you to do an 'arrangement' of his song (regardless of whether your chords 'made' the song). If nothing was ever said upfront then you'll need to prove that it was a songwriting collaboration.

And the winner as always....... the @#$%@#$ lawyers.

Well..I have cassette work tapes of us co writng. I have his letters to record companies originally calling me his producer and boasting of me..and there is nothing on paper saying I am a work for hire, just eveidence of paying for studio time...

[williemyers]

TooDamn, this may be of help (or at least hope). It came from the FindLaw archive, where I think a lot of lawyers go for info;

http://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/copyri ... ps(1).html

Ten Tips for Songwriters: Credits, Copyrights, and Coauthors
2. Yes, the Rhythm Section Can Write Songs

The choice of instrument is not the best criteria for determining who wrote a song. Yes, it's true that a songwriting copyright is awarded to those who jointly contributed to the song's structure, chord progressions, and lyrics. But it's also true -- especially in rock, pop, and dance music -- that a bass or drum part is so integral to the song that it becomes as important as the melody. For example, think of the memorable bass riffs on "Come Together" or "White Lines," or the drum solo on "Wipeout." In that case, the members of the band may determine among themselves that the contributor of the riff be included as a songwriter. In addition, you're always free to throw out traditional rules and decide amongst yourselves to share equally (or by some other formula) in all band-written tunes.

[toodamnhip]

This better be a seriously profitable song... Is it really worth paying a lawyer and losing a client?

If we're talking about a "hit", I still doubt it's worth it. If you are working with a hit songwriter, isn't that the kind of client you want to KEEP? Especially if he can't actually write his own songs... Then he's a hit songwriter who NEEDS you!

If it's not a hit, you're paying a lawyer thousands to fight over pennies.

If it is a hit, what's a) your future cash flow from being on the team of a hit songwriter and b) [your future cash flow from a lawsuit settlement times the probability you will win the lawsuit] minus lawyer's fees and associated costs? I don't know the specifics, but I expect b < a.

Honestly, I don't see how this situation is beneficial to anyone involved except the lawyer and the court... All entertainment industries are primarily about relationships, and suing people makes for bad business.

Just my 2 cents...

Well..I have a cool lawyer, she really tries to keep my costs down.
The reason I posted this in the main forum is because I thought it important enough to be seen by all. I think this thread important enough for James to make a sticky. It affects us all! it is a grey area. Maybe the sticky can be made less personal to me, and more universal. Maybe it should be called Tips and Protections for the average DP producer.

It is also an UNEXPECTED area. Do you know how many times I have been told I'm just an engineer and ended up producing? How many times I have been brought in to produce real records and told I am to produce a song, only to find it needs a bridge, better melody? And in most cases, I have gone in after the fact and gotten proper pay and credit. I did that last yr on an 800,000 $ record for Arista. The lawyers tried to balk, but LA Reid and my partners were cool and didn;t act like a-holes. It's creativity, and what happend in a creative scenario is liable to be unpredictable.

This crap slips in on us all MAN! Really,Really,Really,Really,Really,Really,

I am not stupid.. I have tons of contracts..but this stuff happens unexpectedly. and we all can learn from my hassle. We all should discuss where our rights lie as producers, in a variety of UNEXPECTED situations.

Now, right after the handshake, my other hand will hold an effing contratc covering everything from ideas to acts of god..lol

[MIDI Life Crisis]

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[toodamnhip]

Re: MIDI life crisis--
Well..the suit is over me turning over or not turning over the masters. And my beef back is verbally promised songwriter credits and producer's points.

The evidence of co-writing exists in cassette work tapes and I had considered it a fact that the moment my chords and his melodies and lyrics are put into a fixed form, they are inseperable and copywritten. Some songs also had melodies and spanish lyrics written by me by the way. But I was indeed assured and brought up at the time of creation, that any contributions made would be appropriately credited, i.e. producer and songwriters, which was the subject of the conversation. It should also be known that this guy sang in 3 keys and was unclear as to his melodies, parts of them at least, which became clear only after I picked up a guitar and played chods, such chords affecting his melody in it's creation and I coached him on notes to keep him in the chords..thus, it is true that at least parts of his melody were undefined due to his lack of musical skill. Only a few bits and pieces of the writing exist on cassette after we had clarified melodies OFF cassette, but you can here me running the session, telling him this and that, and it is clear who's in charge.

I do not know if this cause you to want to modify anything you have stated in your well experienced post. Thanks for chiming in.

[musicarteca]

love this thread.

[James Steele]

This is a fascinating thread, but I do think it's best to move it to the "Music Business" forum.

[toodamnhip]

love this thread.

Love you too man, listen, since you love me, can I move into your garage after I pay my lawyers?..lol

Dave

[musicarteca]

This is a fascinating thread, but I do think it's best to move it to the "Music Business" forum.

Nooooooo!

[toodamnhip]

This is a fascinating thread, but I do think it's best to move it to the "Music Business" forum.

I knew you were gonna can it to the suburbs bro..lol...

You know, i wonder, sometimes I wonder if the subdivision of threads hurts us all a bit.

I think the answer is yes and no.

We are all a bit lazy about checking the suburbs..I know that. But this is important stuff...

It's a shame when info vital to us all gets unread...

That's why I snuck it into the "BIG CITY".

And I have a feeling that no one would complain about it being there and that it would become a HUGE thread. You might wish to foorgo "neatness" of catagory on this one and let it be in the big leagues..but I luv ya man and support whatever you do...

[MIDI Life Crisis]

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