Don't you guys sleep?

[twistedtom]

Back to sleep, I crashed big time over 12 hr.s of sleep last night, wow I can even think now. So much so that I think I will change my avitar to some thing better.

[monkey man]

Interesting, Tom; I managed double the usual pittance last night.
I wonder if it was a better night to sleep globally.

Better run; I've got 7 billion interviews to conduct.

[jgest]

Back to sleep, I crashed big time over 12 hr.s of sleep last night, wow I can even think now. So much so that I think I will change my avitar to some thing better.

cool pic/avitar

[jgest]

Better run; I've got 7 billion interviews to conduct.

Your one of those important chaps?

[Frodo]

4:01 AM PST

To re-re-answer the original q:

Not this week.

[monkey man]

Better run; I've got 7 billion interviews to conduct.

Your one of those important chaps?

Naa. There're stones-a-many to be unturned.
If it was a globally-good night to sleep, it's the only way to know for sure.

Just a silly musing stemming from the fact that I find it frustrating and disturbing that so many "experts" around the world make claims regarding the "whole" population or "entire" world when they've made little effort to varify said suppositions.
It's almost as if their self-importance convinces them that "well, if anyone disagrees they'll come to me" when little do they realise most of the world either couldn't care less about their research or isn't aware of it.
You see it all the time.
When I fronted up to the Anti-Cancer Council in Melbourne at 19, armed to the hilt with strategies for curing all their concerns and debunking the myths they were perpetuating whilst at the same time saving them a fortune, I quickly learned that it's not just the arrogant belief that "they'll come to us", but the further-limiting constraint that they must first approve of what you're putting forward.
Talk about insularity. To think the world's fast becoming slave to this "exclusive club's" ideas is infuriatingly frustrating and scary.
I mean, I'm a free-thinker, man, and this it ain't.

For me, at least, the joke was bloody hilarious (I'm an easy room, especially when I'm the only one playing it).

[jgest]

The actual grand unification theory is a physics theory that ties relativity and quantum physics together, it is supposed to explain how all the forces interact together..

Yes, twisted one, this is true.
I used the term to describe my attempt at explaining all I've encountered.
I used punctuation to indicate that I'd borrowed the phrase.
Seemed like a cool term to use. Sorry.

Remember though, that Einstein was amazed by (in his eyes) the fact that the Universe is comprehensible.
Couple this with the extraordinary capacity, capabilty and under-utilisation of our brains, the consumption of ignorance as a staple diet, the multi-level addictions to countless poisons that we feed on religiously every day and, well, you get the idea.
Besides, once one develops a feel for the patterns and "mood" of it all, things quickly start to fall into place.
The ability to instantly discern lies from the truth develops.

On a philosophical point of view I my self believe that any one of us only understands a small portion of the whole of knowledge. The first step on the path to enlightment is realizing your limited understanding. I pride my self on having an open mind but I am still looking through the world with my preconceived notions. At least some of us are looking and not just repeating some one else••™s rhetoric.

Well said, Tom.

Understanding a phenomenon is different from knowing all it's associated details; they will always be understood in light of said knowledge.
I seek to understand the nature of things, recognising patterns and delighting in slotting them into the "jigsaw".
The "humbling" is already done if one is in reverent awe of the exquisite design, balance and synergy of the Universe and the processes within.
A thirst for knowledge does not blind you to acquiring it.
Arrogance will, and that's where my beef with modern-man lies.
It seems to me he is neither humble nor thirsty (unless he just ate a packet of chips), and therefore is doomed to ignorance.

My ex wife had a masters in health, now she has her doctorate in theology. Any way I••˜ve gotten a bit of nutritional information. I still eat bad things; I do eat a lot of vegetables although. Next year I hope to have a green house and put up a deer fence some place here so I can grow organic vegetables. I also need to get more rest.

Sounds good, T; I hope it goes well.
Should be tasty.

Not to get fruity agian, but..........
I just reread the davinci code (when I travel, i like trashy, philosophic, fiction).
There was talk about the pagan origins of the pentagram really pertaining to the divine goddess modeled after VENUS, and not the satanic crap the heavy metal movement made us beleive (anybody remember VENOM, "welcome to hell"? _
There was a passage that astronemers thousands of years ago observed that the planet VENUS actually travels in a pentagram every 8 years. While i know the book is fiction (actually I believe in the hypothesis) My hair stood up reading this. Do you know if this is true? I just get tickled reading about stuff like this.
Also a reference to the symbal pi=1.68 and how it is found everywhere in nature even our own bodies thus tying us all into a connection with nature, and not apart from nature if I haven't lost you?

[Shooshie]

Ahh.. the numbers .618 and .382 represent proportions that pertain to the Golden Mean, which if turned into a series of Golden Rectangles, can be used to plot a logarithmic spiral that is common throughout nature. Composers like Bach used to dabble in that kind of numerology in their compositions. I found a couple of examples, at least, so I thought, and would talk about it a little in a solo concert I used to do. You could hear these really cool things happening at roughly those points in the music. It made the music feel "balanced." Then there's the spiral generated by the Circle of 5ths, and lots of other natural connections. That kind of thing has lost some of its appeal since the days of Bach and Mozart, but now people are finding the relationships in so many other places it seems clear that there are deep structures to everything that connects us all to everything else.

Fun to believe, anyway...

Shooshie

[monkey man]

`
Shooshie's all over it.

The Golden Mean Ratio, isn't it?
The most aesthetically pleasing rectangle happens to be made this way.
If you draw the prettiest rectangle you can, then measure the L/W ratio, you should get 1.68 or thereabouts.
Of course, this assumes you have taste.
It does kinda support the argument that beauty isn't purely in the eye of the beholder, though.
Perhaps there are such things as "good" art, etc.

Shooshie might at this point want to discuss, as only he can, Hofstadter's "Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid"...
Then again, he might not. Still, kinda related, mesuspects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del,_Escher,_Bach

All I know is, I attempted this one at 21 and gave up a third of the way through it, once I realised I should have stuck with algebra at school.
I believe the Meister both completed and, more importantly, understood it!
Don't underestimate this small feat, Josh; that Shooshie's something else.

[monkey man]

Not to get fruity agian, but..........

Did someone mention fuit?

I just reread the davinci code (when I travel, i like trashy, philosophic, fiction).
There was talk about the pagan origins of the pentagram really pertaining to the divine goddess modeled after VENUS, and not the satanic crap the heavy metal movement made us beleive (anybody remember VENOM, "welcome to hell"? _

Good ol' Venom! They scare me less than greedy folks messin' wit' ancient, tried-and-tested doctrine.

There was a passage that astronemers thousands of years ago observed that the planet VENUS actually travels in a pentagram every 8 years. While i know the book is fiction (actually I believe in the hypothesis) My hair stood up reading this. Do you know if this is true?

Dunno. Wouldn't surprise me.
Mars has an interesting cyclic orbit.

I do know that for some reason we all went from having 360 days in our year to 365.
Now that's a trip, the more you think about it.
There were super-long days and nights recorded world-wide around about the transition, circa 700 B.C.
I suspect a close shave with mars may have played a role here.
I've heard reports it came so close it filled a third of the sky.
Folks have feared mars for some time, and I suspect this has something to do with that.
Of course, Mars is the God of War as well.

I just get tickled reading about stuff like this.

Hope you just got tickled.
No? Tickle, tickle, tickle...
There. No more. Let's not ruin your appetite.

Also a reference to the symbal pi=1.68 and how it is found everywhere in nature even our own bodies thus tying us all into a connection with nature, and not apart from nature if I haven't lost you?

Similar parts in dissimilar products/creations suggest a common designer or design-philosophy.
The parts themselves in no way connect said constructions.
Food for thought, perhaps.

[jgest]

Not to get fruity agian, but..........

Did someone mention fuit?

I just reread the davinci code (when I travel, i like trashy, philosophic, fiction).
There was talk about the pagan origins of the pentagram really pertaining to the divine goddess modeled after VENUS, and not the satanic crap the heavy metal movement made us beleive (anybody remember VENOM, "welcome to hell"? _

Good ol' Venom! They scare me less than greedy folks messin' wit' ancient, tried-and-tested doctrine.

There was a passage that astronemers thousands of years ago observed that the planet VENUS actually travels in a pentagram every 8 years. While i know the book is fiction (actually I believe in the hypothesis) My hair stood up reading this. Do you know if this is true?

Dunno. Wouldn't surprise me.
Mars has an interesting cyclic orbit.

I do know that for some reason we all went from having 360 days in our year to 365.
Now that's a trip, the more you think about it.
There were super-long days and nights recorded world-wide around about the transition, circa 700 B.C.
I suspect a close shave with mars may have played a role here.
I've heard reports it came so close it filled a third of the sky.
Folks have feared mars for some time, and I suspect this has something to do with that.
Of course, Mars is the God of War as well.

I just get tickled reading about stuff like this.

Hope you just got tickled.
No? Tickle, tickle, tickle...
There. No more. Let's not ruin your appetite.

Also a reference to the symbal pi=1.68 and how it is found everywhere in nature even our own bodies thus tying us all into a connection with nature, and not apart from nature if I haven't lost you?

Similar parts in dissimilar products/creations suggest a common designer or design-philosophy.
The parts themselves in no way connect said constructions.
Food for thought, perhaps.

what is the cyclic orbit of mars? I have been at a metaphysical crossroads lately. I have been stuck in a "nihalistic" rut (sickened by new ageness) for the last 5 years.

I live in northern California where everybody has some sort of new age dogma that they adhere to. While that should be inspiringly stimulating, I became rather disgusted by it in a Nietzche sense (god is dead, becuase man killed god!)

it seems that people loosley pick and choose tenents of philosophy to siut there every whim, whish and fantasy rather than having a base line of faith, integrity and honor. And when thing get difficult and challanging those "spiritual" people resort to the fundamental MASLOW hierarchy of needs (ME, MINE, I)

It made me sick and, and for the last 5 years I have struggled to appreciate all the wonderful mysticism of nature (I have a BA in philosohpy) and humanity. My upbringing on the otherside of Coast in NJ, (water and oil compared to CA) while not apreciating mysticism seemed to offer a solid base of integrity, honor and moral dignity that these new age hippies in the west could barley touch despite their chakra alignment, kundalini evolvement, crystal (meth) wearing, soy latte, organic veggie stewing fluff.

And then I go an read something as comercial as the davinci code and all of a sudden I feel a divine connection What the heck?

[monkey man]

what is the cyclic orbit of mars?

Off-hand, I believe there's a 3 or 400 year cycle culminating in/featuring a very close encounter with earth.
BTW, you know mars' surface is becoming warmer, no?

I have been at a metaphysical crossroads lately. I have been stuck in a "nihalistic" rut (sickened by new ageness) for the last 5 years.
I live in northern California where everybody has some sort of new age dogma that they adhere to. While that should be inspiringly stimulating, I became rather disgusted by it in a Nietzche sense (god is dead, becuase man killed god!)
it seems that people loosley pick and choose tenents of philosophy to siut there every whim, whish and fantasy rather than having a base line of faith, integrity and honor. And when thing get difficult and challanging those "spiritual" people resort to the fundamental MASLOW hierarchy of needs (ME, MINE, I)

Spot-on. Spinal-notice: Out to lunch.
Cherry-pickin'. They should all move to Washington.

It made me sick and, and for the last 5 years I have struggled to appreciate all the wonderful mysticism of nature...

I'd persist because...

... (I have a BA in philosohpy) and humanity.

This will be a hindrance.
Philosophy scares me. "The love of man's wisdom", I believe it means.
I prefer not to place man at the top of the pecking-order.
After all, if one does this one is in effect placing one's self there, accountable to no-one.

My upbringing on the otherside of Coast in NJ, (water and oil compared to CA) while not apreciating mysticism seemed to offer a solid base of integrity, honor and moral dignity that these new age hippies in the west could barley touch despite their chakra alignment, kundalini evolvement, crystal (meth) wearing, soy latte, organic veggie stewing fluff.

Well said, and funny!
You've probably heard me rave about "foundations" many times, as I believe these are what it all comes down to.
I used to be a new-ager, 'till I realised the jist of it all is really "all about me".
Paganism under the guise of God-connected self-help, it would seem to be.
Interesting how many New Agers will risk their lives for a tree, and how few are out there saving... people.
There's a sinister undercurrent of population-control and a New World Order, mesniffs.
New Age expenditures typically feed those who would become rich.
Those hapless cherry-pickers are being blown from product to product, slowly being used up.
Hey, I spent $60 000 at the health shops in 15 years before I woke up to this, having become one myself.

I'm all over this one; I best shut up now before I rock too many foundations.

And then I go an read something as comercial as the davinci code and all of a sudden I feel a divine connection What the heck?

Yeah, wassup wit' dat?

Well, sometimes inspirition, devine or otherwise, can come from the strangest situations and places.
There's an old saying that goes something like, "Don't despise the day of small beginnings."
Each is as magical as the last. It's up to you to explore and weave your way within it.
I've personally found it's often the awful starts that can become the most meaningful days.

Hang in there, Josh-man; you'll get there.
You may already be there.

[Shooshie]

I believe the Meister both completed and, more importantly, understood it!

I've read it, and some parts of it many times. It's a wonderful expression of someone's perceptions of the crossroads of knowledge and being. Doug Hofstadter is a special man. I think he has a new book coming out which will clear up a bit of the "nerdiness" that the last one seems to have engendered in the fans who rather mistook his meanings.

Hofstadter's book appeared on possibly more coffee tables than any other book of the 1980s, and was recommended for others to read more than it was actually read. The first few chapters gave you such a cuddly feeling about the world of knowledge that most readers experienced a religious sort of reaction to it. Not quite nirvana, but maybe at least some idea that maybe there COULD be some nirvana to it all. Then the book bogged down in technical ideas, and the dialogues became more and more fugue-like.

You see, most lovers of Bach are really lovers of the Brandenburg Concerti, or of Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring; or the ever-lovable Wachet Auf, which a cellist once referred to me as "Whackit Off" as she headed out the door to play it on the umpteenth Sunday morning at some church. When you sit them down to hear the Preludes and Fugues, they love the preludes, but those fugues... well... he could have made them a little shorter, couldn't he have? And there's no particular reason why they should like the fugues. They weren't made for people to "like." They were made to channel the monstrous mind of this genetic mutant of a musical genius into some place where he could claim some meaning from it all, so that he wouldn't ponder that engine of infinite horsepower sitting idly in his skull and say "ehhh... what of it?" The fugues were written for Bach.

"On the eighth day, God
Created Bach, with whom he conspired,
Such that each finally got
What his heart desired."

He was appreciated in his time, though nothing like the way we appreciate him now. And perhaps he knew we would, but living where he was, when he lived, he was a fish out of water. No... He was a whale out of ocean. He longed for another mind like his own to reflect him. He wanted so much to be led as much as he was a leader. So, in his music he planted the very tools to understand his genius, and all genius. He taught his own kids, but he left their pedagogical tools, that he had created, to benefit all others too.

His mastery of style was other worldish. And so, when people hear him on a happy morning, or on a pensive, misty autumn day, they feel their hearts torn open with joy or sadness, and they cannot help but love him for his music.

What Hofstadter did was creative; not on the level of the Master, but he was able to copy the Master's creativity and funnel it into a place where he could both make sense of the paradoxes that great knowledge had presented to him, and teach it to others. Like Bach, Hofstaedter is a pedagogue. The more you read of him the more he can teach you. He came to me at the right time in my life. I was 24 in 1979 when it was written, and I was drawn to it like a magnet to a bucket of nails. Nobody told me about the book. It was sitting there in front of me on the shelf at the bookstore. I bought it. As I was checking out, the girl behind me pointed at it and said incredulously, "you're actually going to READ that?" I was sad for her. Someone had already recommended it to her and tried to tell her how great it was, and with each word of adulation they added, her self-worth translated it into "you'll never understand this book," so she didn't even try. It's not a hard read at all. What it does, though, is presents you with the tools to understand the universe at the highest level of competency available to humans at this time (at least, at THAT time). That's not to say it contained the highest knowledge, but that it contained the ideas, the perspectives, that made it possible to understand anything at all.

Self reference, isomorphism, mu, ricercar, recursion, Feynman diagrams, translation, brain, mind, mathematic principles, differentiation and morphogenesis... and much, much more... he gave us something to think about, and the tools with which to think. He turned a generation of readers into thinkers in the classical sense. Not just merely smart people.

So, like Bach, who had put his divinely powered mind to work, Hofstadter, also divinely inspired by Bach, Gödel, and Escher, put his mind to work, and as a result, we all found that we could slip our divine engines out of neutral and engage them and put them to work.

You see what they all did for us? They made us thinkers. They made us understanders. Cognitive apprentices to the Master of Masters, whomever that may be.

I can tell you that without Bach there would have been no Hofstadter, no Mozart, or Beethoven or any of the line of musical genius we came to know, and we would not be thinkers of the caliber that is now available to us.

The world of men gives up its ignorance reluctantly, so the generation of thinkers has inspired also a generation of those who would kill them, stop them, take away all that nirvana from them. The haters. They cannot stand to hear Bach. They cannot stand to see that book of Hofstadter's. And they can't stand for you or me to have read it and enjoyed it. For once you are a thinker, they have no power over you. You laugh at their misbegotten power, because they are so stupid. Nothing more than Huns, they are, for they have only the capacity to destroy, and that, only temporarily, for we have knowledge. We have the power and gift of truth and knowledge that cannot be taken from us, above which the haters cannot rise. Theirs is a world of ridicule. It's the smartest they can feel. And that's... pathetic.

So, be happy that you think, you feel, you know, you follow curiosity where it leads you. The haters make a good show every few generations or so, but progress marches on. They merely show us where we need to rebuild, which we do even as their jaws are clenched on the supports we're setting back up. They can only destroy for a short while, for then they appear silly and childish, and the parents step in, reprimand them, and set things right again; better than ever.

And that we will do.

And you thought music was just icing on the cake? Hehehe... Music baked the cake.

Shooshie

[monkey man]

Thank you, Shooshie.

If you'll forgive the low-brow expression, "Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout."

It was about a quarter to a third the way through that my eyes glazed over, so your observation that it "bogged down in technical ideas, and the dialogues became more and more fugue-like" certainly isn't lost on me.
Looks like I'll have to track the book down and give it a another burl.
Thank you for taking the time, Meister; you may already have inspired others besides the wannabe-human apester to sink their teeth into it.

There is and can only be one Shooshmeister, and he's ours.
Yay!