HD192, 24 i/o, and Apogee Big Ben

[imr1001]

I'm having digital pop problems on ch3 out of my HD192 unit. I have a PCI 424 on a dual 2.7 G5 and use an HD192 and 24 i/o to power a 32 channel Trident console. I thought I might be having clock problems as a result of relying more and more on in's and out's across the two devices (HD192 and 24i/o) so I went out and dropped the dime on the Apogee Big Ben to check out the hype and also to get rid of my click problem.

(1) It did not get rid of the random, intermittent click on CH3 out of the HD192. Even worse, the click only registers on the CH3 out, however, the audible click comes out every output, so I cant record or mix! I wonder if I am having a hardware problem with the HD192? I tried upgrading the PCI software to the newest version, moving PCI slots, turning off the 24 i/o to rule out sync issues, and more. No improvement. Any ideas?

(2) With the PCI 424, having a dedicated master clock does not seem to make a whole lot of sense to me because each unit can only slave to one Word Clock in. All devices connected to the PCI 424 has to slalve to the same source, rather than its own word clock in . . . for example, the both the HD192 and 24 i/o have to slave to the HD192 word in. As I understand it, the clock signal is then being sync'd over the PCI424 cables rather than the 75ohm BNC connector. If I'm right, this essentially eliminates the benefits of a "star" schema from a master clock, where all i/o devices slave directly to the master via dedicated BNC connection. Am I missing something here? Where is the benefit of a master clock with MOTU PCI 424 gear?

Number one is probably a better question for tech support, but I have never had any luck actually connecting with live person at MOTU. All morning today the signal has been busy.

I wonder if I need to move to Apogee or RME if this kind of stuff is going to happen regularly. I switched to MOTU from a Mix Cubed ProTools setup because I did not want to be a slave to the Digidesign upgrade path. However, this might be a case of "you get what you pay for"???

Concerned,
imr1001

[imr1001]

update . . . I tried reversing the problem and turning off the HD192. Using the 24i/o only, the problem persists except this time on the 24i/o output #3. Could be a PCI card problem? I have the second generation card with the "notch" so I think I'm up to date. The problem persists no matter what clock source I indicate in the PCI 424 console.

From concerned to aggrivated,
imr1001

[damongold]

alas,
i too have been feeling the sting of motu's less than adaquate tech support. unfortuneatly i know your problem and you are not goimg to like it. it can be one of 3 items causing your issue. a bad i/o however by turning off one box you have eliminated that option so now you have to check your audio wire you may have a bad cable. then try reinstalling your pci software that worked for me. or lastly find a friend who has a motu rig and try swappimg your converters. i dicoverd to my dismay that i had a bad pci 424 card.
and yes you do get what you pay for. digi may be pricefixing nazis but thier techs are grade a and ALWAYS able to remedy a problem. however at least you did not go down the logic path !!!

[imr1001]

Thanks for the response . . . glad to know I'm not alone.

So I ended up getting someone to call me by pressuring my sales rep at the local pro-audio outlet where I got the gear. The MOTU tech support line is *still* busy. Same as you, I have a bad 424 card.

So they are supposed to call tomorrow to arrange a new one to get shipped out but I loose a day in the studio, not to mention the embarrasing moment this morning when the whole system failed in very important meeting. I guess sometimes learning the hard way is the only way to really learn.

For those who want to know the MOTU answer to the Big Ben clocking question: MOTU says that the 424 technology passes the clock signal over the audiowire thereby eliminating the need for "redundant BNC cable". All devices on the 424 chain will slave to the master clock via audiowire through the PCI 424 card, which I suspected. While this may be true, I'm still having trouble reconcilling the Apogee literature which indicates the superior clocking method is the "star" schema where each audio device is connected via terminated BNC. Their literature states that one should not use BNC termination with MOTU, however, because it does not play nice with the Big Ben termination indicators due to MOTU's "non-standard" word clock implementation. The theory is that the clocking transfer method needs to be rock solid, an independent cable carrying the signal is the best way to ensure consistency. Still, I can hear a difference when slaving to the big ben. Whether that's a 1300 dollar improvement is another question. I wonder if that difference would be more obvious with different converters.

[Sergievsky]

Did you try using the other two audiowire connectors on the card? Maybe its just the connector, which was my problem in my old 324 card.

[resolectric]

I suggest the following:

1. The device receiving the clock signal from BigBen should be connected to the #1 port of PCI424 (its the AudioWire port nearer the multipin connector).

2. The second device should be connected on PCI424's port #2.

3. When booting up all the gear first boot up the clock generating device. Big Ben first of all! Then, the other gear (24i/o, HD192, console...).

Hope this solves it.

[imr1001]

I went through every possible scenario including moving audiowire cable, boot order, pci slots, removing all other PCI cards (UAD-1 card, etc), software updates, OS updates. No luck. MOTU confirmed the PCI card went bad.

Here is the indicator in case anybody else is suffering: when the "pop" appears on the output adjacent to the last active output, you've got a good indication that your card is bad. For example, playing a stero file out outputs 1 and 2, the pop will indicate on channel 3's LED indicators, but the signal will be audible out 1 and 2. Playing six tracks out 1-6, the pop will indicate on 7's LED indicators, but will be audible on 1-6.

Once I got a hold of MOTU support through the "back channels" they were helpful and are shipping me a new card. But I still cant get through on the support line.

[swampfox]

I guess I have a bad one as well. It's either the card or the 24 IO. My problem is on the input side. I get nothing but noise as soon as I click record. I know my signal path is good because I can record clean using the same everything through my old 828. I too have reinstalled drivers, swapped PCI slots and moved the cable to different jacks. What really chaps me is that I have never tried to record anything other than to see if it worked when I first got it back in Feburary this year. Been using the Alesis remote mostly. I emailed MOTU and sweetwater where I bought the rig. Guess who called me? Well, they couldn't help me but at least they had the decency to call! MOTU is way down on my list about now. I wonder about a company who's tech support lines are allways busy and they don't have time to answer a coustomer's email. If their tech support is that busy then their product must suck.I can't tell if the problem is in the 24IO or the PCI card. I don't have spares to swap around. I don't expect to buy any. The next IO hardware I buy will likely be from a different vendor. Sorry for the vent.

Wally Smith