Opinions: Song contest rules unfair?

[Pappy725]

But then I have some scruples... LOL.

Not to mention the money and good will you've earned running this place!
Pappy

Heheh... you mean the "good will." The money... well... that's NOT why I do it!

Yep, I knew that, just ribbing you a little. I was one of the lucky ones that got to help out when you did ask for donations. I think it was during the server meltdown/transfer period. And you shut that down in a hurry too!
Anyway, thanks again for doing this so we can have all this fun here with each other. Not to mention teach each other a little about our favorite audio application!

Pappy

[James Steele]

Hey thanks for the help that time around... you and the others. It turned out to be a real bear to move the board over to the new software and as you can see I haven't even gotten around to a nicer skin for the site, but at least it is functionally here and seems to be stable. I haven't seen too many of those CPU errors either lately, so (knock on wood) we seem to be okay.

[mikehalloran]

>except where prohibited by law.<

Not being a lawyer, I will not comment exceot to say that a Copyright attorney should have no problem seeing that many of the terms of the agreement are prohibited by the Copyright law.

Even if they were to control your mechanical rights, you would still be entitled to your performance rights as long as the Copyright from was filled out correctly and you registered the song with your PRO. Again, any Copyright attorney will know this.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

... and the first thing the defendant will do is cease and desist - thereby getting you nothing in terms of royalties and making you know as a litigant who doesn't play by the rules. Suggestion: don't bother with the contest in the first place.

[mikehalloran]

... and the first thing the defendant will do is cease and desist - thereby getting you nothing in terms of royalties and making you know as a litigant who doesn't play by the rules. Suggestion: don't bother with the contest in the first place.

No, no, no! ... You get the attorney involved after you win the contest.

Sheesh!

That contest has a number of rules and requirements that cannot be enforced including a big fat one that was outlawed in the 1976 revision of the Copyright Law. No, I am not going to say what it is. I am not an attorney and I don't even play one on TV. I did have a small part in the creation of that law and have read it many times.

Standing up for your rights should never be discouraged. What - it might label you a troublemaker? Besides, the last thing the contest would want is for word to get out that they were idiots who copied contest rules off of some old form or, more likely, made it up as they went along and had no idea what they were doing.

This stuff is the bread and butter of entertainment and Copyright law: informing all parties of the correct rules for playing The Game. In this case, an entertainment lawyer will simply inform the contest how things should be done - and they will - assuming that the contest winner consults an attorney before signing any contract.

But, if one doesn't enter and win, there's nothing to fight over.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Standing up for your rights should never be discouraged. What - it might label you a troublemaker?

Hee hee, Mike, you're talking to someone who has brought about 8 infringement suits in the last 10 years. Won 'em all. But this is a contract issue, not an infringement issue as far as I can tell.

[mikehalloran]

Exactly.

Step one: Win the contest

Step two: Run the contract - and there will be one - past an entertainment lawyer pointing out concerns about rights, ownership and 'in perpetuity'. The lawyer will bring in a Copyright attorney to clarify if not qualified to practice Copyright law. The attorney will explain to you just how binding the contest entry form is when it contains illegal language.

Step three: Attorney sends letter to contest. Since it will deal with the contest rules themselves, it would apply to any winner.

Step four: Contest organizers, through their attorney, let you know that Copyright forms and cue sheets (for TV) will be done correctly, that no one thought of performance rights that they can't control anyway and that, of course, a certain clause was a typo/printer error/big mistake. Most of all, they will try to convince you that no one meant to infringe on your rights.

Step five: Everybody will be friends.

Step six: Both sides' attorneys do lunch, play golf or both and then pat themselves on the back for a job well done.

This is the way these things are done in the entertainment industry in California.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Not so sure step 4 will move according to plan, Mike. Remember were talking about ABC and Disney. Have you ever worked for The Mouse? Retention of rights is paramount to all their agreements and I doubt they would cave on this one.

[mikehalloran]

OK, I am not a lawyer but I am pretty sure that ABC/Disney lawyers didn't write contest rules that violate the Copyright law and a few California statutes. Someone did, however. This is why step four would go exactly as planned. There is a major blunder and a few minor ones in those rules. Any letter written would apply to all contest applicants and ABC/Disney lawyers would know this.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

OK, I am not a lawyer but I am pretty sure that ABC/Disney lawyers didn't write contest rules that violate the Copyright law and a few California statutes. Someone did, however. This is why step four would go exactly as planned. There is a major blunder and a few minor ones in those rules. Any letter written would apply to all contest applicants and ABC/Disney lawyers would know this.

Well, I won't be the one to test it. You do seem to know what your talking about, Mike. OTOH, I have a lot of experience in legal music matters and there is no "standard" in L.A. or anywhere else. There is the law and you are correct, you cannot enter into a contract that violates the law. But you can enter into a contract that is open to interpretation of the law and that may be what the contest lawyers are counting on; that the winner will not bother to contest (no pun intended) the agreement. And in a court of law, it can be argued that the PR and exposure are good and valuable consideration in exchange for the exclusive license to the work.

Now whether or not they would win that argument in court is another matter. But also consider that going up against a major company like Disney will take substantial resources (read: money) and unless you have an attorney who will take the case pro bono (or you do it pro se) it might be impractical to challenge the contract.

This is all theory and the proof of the pudding is in the eating. It would take someone to bring an action to test your theory or mine and until that happens, we're just pissin' in the wind.

[mikehalloran]

There are two things so basically wrong in the "rules" that a simple letter written by an entertainment lawyer will fix 'em. Knowing how to do these things is how good entertainment lawyers manage to drive very expensive cars while spending almost no time in court. Your "in court" scenarios do not apply to this contest.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Well I cetainly can't argue with someone who knows all the right answers. Nor will I try...

[mikehalloran]

Well I cetainly can't argue with someone who knows all the right answers. Nor will I try...

Frankly, it's about time.

Don't make this a pissing contest. I don't know all the right answers but I know this one. In this case, I cannot post the answers online. Unlike you, I use my own name when I post and, not being a lawyer, I will not post something that smacks of practicing law - not for you nor anyone else - no matter how certain I am. In addition, such a post could be interpreted as speaking for my employer - we have other people who do that.

Do a quick read of the Copyright Law you should see what I saw. When you do, you will see why those rules cannot be enforced. You will also see why it doesn't matter if it is Disney/ABC or the man in the moon. If it isn't Congress, it doesn't matter in this case.

Till then, all I can say is that an entertainment lawyer would make certain clauses go away. It wouldn't cost much. But, first, one has to win the contest - without that happening, all of this is hot air. I'm done.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Google MIDI life crisis if you want to know my name.

[FMiguelez]

...Unlike you, I use my own name when I post and...

In al fairness, EVERYBODY here knows Michael's real and full name. A simple Google search brings lots of him

This is a VERY interesting discussion. I, too, have been confused in the past where the "rules" of something (contest or otherwise) contradict the law, and in theory, JUST because of that fact, whatever was signed is moot.
The trick is to get action done... can take YEARS down here