MOTUnation.com

Sorry, I have read and re-read all your posts, Matt, and I cannot figure out why you are so opposed to a stereo controller plug-in. Is it that much of a time consumer to insert one on a stereo track? I do tons of mixing and it isn't for me. Certainly, it's never been a deal-killer, as you seem to think it is.

Lack of a stereo controller on stereo tracks can be solved so easily by just
getting a stereo controller plug-in. Man went to the moon and built the pyramids - surely, an issue like this can be solved quickly and efficiently.

I still haven't found a stereo controller plug-in better than Waves S1:
http://www.waves.com/Content.aspx?id=275

And it does more than any of the stereo controllers in Pro Tools or Cubase.

Why not treat yourself to a Christmas present and get the plug-in and get on with your work?

Thanks Dave. I know the S1 really well. Great fix it in the mix tool and I love it in certain instances for many reasons.
Getting work done fast is what I want. Insert one on a track - easy. Inserting on on every instance of a stereo track just to get basic pan - thanks but no thanks. CPU overheads and lack of control surface integration with the physical pan controllers are just two reasons why. I am very happy it works for you and your workflow doesn't need it for speed. For some of course this will not be a deal killer, for others thought the lack of ability to mix on the fly like this is a deal killer.

Rather than the waves S1 I personally like Spanner and Isono Anymix. Horses for courses. Thanks for the suggestions.

David Polich wrote:Man went to the moon and built the pyramids...

And I thought they only picked up a few rocks. Man, I really missed a lot ion the 60s and 70s...

Sorry Dave. That was too good to pass up.

Nice holiday snap there MLC.

David, I hope this helps you see where I am coming from.
[img=http://s10.postimage.org/c34ylav9h/protools_s1_4_pan.jpg]

You can see at a glance where the track placements are across the stereo panorama. You can also reach and grab for any pan on a control surface intuitively and quickly. Mapping rotary controllers on a surface to the controllers on plugins (such as S1) is not intuitive, does not display any useful panoramic information (such as where the resultant width and placement are from a combination of L and R location). I have done a whole range of things to the S1 plugins in the image linked above - but you can't seem them therefore don't know what is happening at a glance, or have any intuitive control over them with any dexterity or speed. Screen real estate to have them all open if using visual cues - not likely, not to mention they no longer align visually with the tracks. Leaving them all closed in ears-only mode then, as the image shows, gives you zero feedback and nothing to reach for. Translating what I hear to what my hands do needs to be as fast on a console as they are on the instruments I play. That is just my workflow.
cheers,
Matt

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:

David Polich wrote:Man went to the moon and built the pyramids...

And I thought they only picked up a few rocks. Man, I really missed a lot ion the 60s and 70s...

Sorry Dave. That was too good to pass up.

Reminds me of a great segment of "Jay Walking" on the Tonight Show where Jay stops and asks questions of random residents of Los Angeles. It will make you despair about our educational system. Anyway, it went like this:

JAY: What did the Apollo astronauts plant on the moon?
RANDOM FEMALE: A tree?
JAY: Umm... yeah... maybe a pine tree. You know... one of those high altitude trees that DOESN'T NEED MUCH AIR?!!

I'm not mixing in the box, so this mono panner controversy is a moot point for me.

I do agree with the OP that dual panners would be a nice addition to DP.

Seems like quite a few folks agree.

Dave?

I discovered that i was questioning this back in Feb 2006!!

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... it=+panner

SWT

From that thread:

magicd wrote:Here are two solutions:
When you assign the output of a stereo track to a surround sound bundle, you get a surround panner for the track. Open the panner window by clicking on the button in the upper left hand corner of the panner in the mixer.
Look at the bottom oif the window for the Stereo Mode pop-up. This provides five different ways to control a stereo signal assigned to a surround output.

If you need the left and right signals to be completely independent from each other, do it this way.
Assign the output of the stereo track to a stereo bus pair. Create two aux tracks. Each aux track has a mono input and takes one side of the bus pair output from the stereo track. The aux tracks have 5.1 output assignments. Now for all intensive purposes, you have turned the stereo track into two independent mono tracks, each with surround output.

Magic Dave

Well I have had to resort to creating 2 aux channels to achieve independent panning for surround. One thing I did do in DP's Bundles was to create a number of stereo paths - L-R, Ls-Rs, L-Ls, R-Rs, L-Rs, R-Ls etc. The one that was hardest to do - and is such a breeze in PT - is to pan the left element to somewhere between L and Ls, and the right element to somewhere between L and R - for instance - creating a stereo image somewhere off to the left......

Cheers

SWT

I use DP's pan controls for much of what I do, but when I need real control, I use the Trim plugin and/or Waves S1. I've wished for years that Trim would show up on the channel strips one of these days, but it hasn't. Nevertheless, anyone who tells me that DP is not for serious professional work because of the Pan control, is a serious crackpot. Nor do you get extra points for working with real musicians. Quite a few of us are real musicians. Some have Grammies, Academy Awards, and/or others. We welcome all comers, but don't make the mistake of assuming this is just a nice little forum of hobbyists.

I have no problem with someone choosing another DAW. I've used several, and I currently own DP and Logic. I don't use Logic anymore, but I honestly have great respect for people who can coax a musical performance out of Logic. They're working harder than I do for the same result, but I admire their dedication. I don't even mind when someone tells me why such-and-such is their favorite DAW. No, where I have trouble is when someone comes along and tells me that MY choice of DAW is invalid, that it's no good, that it can't possibly be used for professional work, etc., etc. They nearly always give us a peek at their résumé, so we know that those insults aren't coming from just any ol' Joe off the street. Do they not realize that they already stepped in the bull-•••• the moment they dissed our DAW? From that point on, nothing they say is particularly important. Seriously, if you're a pro, how about some professional courtesy?

You get out of life and work what you put into them. Plain and simple. Tools can sure help make it better, but when you don't have the exact tool, that doesn't stop you from your work, especially when there are a half dozen others that will do the job. If MOTU ever puts Trim into the channel strip the way they did their dynamics and EQ plugins, I'll be elated. Until then, I will always have ways of getting what I want from it, very quickly. And outside of an occasional response like this, I really don't have much time for people who want to tell me that what I'm doing or what I'm using is no good, or "not for pro's." Do such folks have any idea how many professionals they're speaking to? Listen up: that's not cool.

The single most impressive professional trait that I find most often in people at the top of their fields is humility.

Shooshie

Shooshie wrote:Some have Grammies, Academy Awards, and/or others.

Don't forget the nominees or the folks working with the top players, orchestras, and filmmakers.

Mind the hobbits!

I honestly don't get what the deal is here. Frankly, stereo to me isn't panned, its balanced. In other words, the energy on stereo tracks should be the same on both the left and right tracks. If stereo isn't balanced, the output is tilted and that's not what you want for stereo tracks. There are tools such as the "Trim" plugin that can change the position within the stereo field but the net result should still be balanced. Now mono tracks are indeed panned with regard to soundscape. I cringe when people say "Pan Stereo"..... It literally makes no sense to me...

I am definitely with our new friend Matt on this one.
It would be so useful if DP adopted something like VE Pro's controlls for this. You basically get BOTH flavors AND visual feed back on stereo spread and position. It's extremely intuitive and useful.

And it is all easily automated and responds perfectly to control surfaces.

How hard could it be for MOTU to at least put the Trim plug in the mixer, next to the pan pots?

Given how many folks are finding this a potentially useful tool, I would say it would be a good thing to encourage MOTU to add this. Personally, I probably wouldn't need it much, but then again, you never know.

Thanks, Matt-In-A, for bringing this up. Also, please don't take any negative sounding comments to heart. We're a fast paced and open bunch (mostly pros as far as I can tell) and we don't pull punches. Like you, we're passionate about our work and sometimes that colors our responses. I'm perhaps one of the biggest offenders in that regard and have alienated a few members unnecessarily by overstating my position from time to time. But we all have one thing in common. We want the best tools we can get and, by far, the majority here feel DP is that tool.

Do what you must, but don't discount DP out of hand for that one feature. Who knows, it may pop into the next update (which is forthcoming, right Dave?)

Oh, that's the other thing. While MOTU doesn't run this site, they definitely watch it and participate from time to time, even giving their MOTU email addresses online for a response from a member with a problem. That is, IMO, worth a lot more than just having the kind of pan control you're used to. But again, that's just me.