DP4 is just unreliable. What's going on here?

[James Steele]

You don't have journaling enabled on any of your drives do you?

Is journaling a problem? I remember seeing some discussions about this and the consensus seemed to be that the performance hit was negligible and that there were some data integrity benefits to having journaling on.

[jimfisheye]

You don't have journaling enabled on any of your drives do you?

Yes. When I set up the HD Disk Utility wouldn't let me select extended without journaling. I guess I just assumed that's the way things were now with OSX and ignored it (now that sounds kind of stupid of me).
Strange - the "disable journaling" command Apple talks about in disk utility doesn't seem to exist. TechTool has this ability though.
Is journaling a huge resource hog?

I'll post if this cures the problem.

Nope. That wasn't it.
I still think the problem is OSX itself. It seems to just hang every once in a while no matter what's running. If I'm having RAM problems, I find it curious that it would only affect the OSX system and not OS9. Does anyone know what brands of RAM might be strangely problematic (if any)?

[Resonant Alien]

Nope. That wasn't it.
I still think the problem is OSX itself. It seems to just hang every once in a while no matter what's running. If I'm having RAM problems, I find it curious that it would only affect the OSX system and not OS9. Does anyone know what brands of RAM might be strangely problematic (if any)?

Not curious that you could experience a RAM problem in OSX but not in OS9 - OSX itself requires more RAM to run than OS9. Also, DP 4.12 requires more RAM than DP 3.x. I don't have the DP4 manual in front of me, but I think it mentions something like recommending at least 1G of RAM minimum, 1.5G preferred.

Not saying that is defintely your problem, but it would not be strange to see it in one setup but not the other.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Please reply with your setup ????

TiBook 667 w/ 768M ram
OS 10.3.9
DP 4.12
60G 7200 rpm 8M buffer Hitachi internal HD
120G 7200 rpm 8M buffer WD external firewire HD

FWIW, I was mixing a 2 hour film on an 800 mHz G4 and was experiencing very sluggish performance (DP 4.1 and OS 9.2.2 as I recall). No crashes. I upgraded to a Sonnet 1.4 GHz processor and the problem disappeared. Perhaps 667 mHz is a bit slow? BUT... if you are having problems with other apps

>DP4.12 with OSX (and Protools 6 and Roxio Toast, Jam 6 for that matter) is quite unreliable.

then I would suspect that you may have a RAM issue and/or a speed issue.

As far as journaling, that has never been a problem in any of my OS X systems with multiple internal and external drives. Perhaps for some, it may be, but you might want to test your RAM:

http://www.memtestosx.org/

watch a complete picture of CPU conditions:

http://www.gauchosoft.com/Software/X%20 ... e%20Graph/

and try your suspect files on other, working systems.

[jimfisheye]

Nope. That wasn't it.
I still think the problem is OSX itself. It seems to just hang every once in a while no matter what's running. If I'm having RAM problems, I find it curious that it would only affect the OSX system and not OS9. Does anyone know what brands of RAM might be strangely problematic (if any)?

Not curious that you could experience a RAM problem in OSX but not in OS9 - OSX itself requires more RAM to run than OS9. Also, DP 4.12 requires more RAM than DP 3.x. I don't have the DP4 manual in front of me, but I think it mentions something like recommending at least 1G of RAM minimum, 1.5G preferred.

Not saying that is defintely your problem, but it would not be strange to see it in one setup but not the other.

Thanks for the input. You are likely correct that OSX/DP4 requires a faster CPU and more RAM. I, however, would perceive this as a failure on Apple's/MOTU's part. (Unless this is a bug situation - still their fault). The fact is this G4 667 TiBook will record 44 tracks at 24 bit 48kHz using 3 firewire audio interfaces with DP3/OS9 WITH ABSOLUTELY NO HANGUPS OR CRASHES - NOT EVEN ONCE. (And, yes 44 is the max with this CPU.) With DP4/OSX, it can crash (stop recording) with as few as 5 tracks recording with only one firewire interface. (It will still do up to 44 tracks, but will always crash periodically - gives me a 4 hour chunk of 44 tracks one time, crashes after 15 minutes the next). To me, releasing a new version of a product that can't even handle 1/8 of the workload [that the old version handled] reliably is a colossal blunder.

Although I'm certain that I've tried all possible setup tricks (buffers, etc.), I'm still open to suggestions. I do appreciate everyone's help.

-JN

[jimfisheye]

Please reply with your setup ????

TiBook 667 w/ 768M ram
OS 10.3.9
DP 4.12
60G 7200 rpm 8M buffer Hitachi internal HD
120G 7200 rpm 8M buffer WD external firewire HD

FWIW, I was mixing a 2 hour film on an 800 mHz G4 and was experiencing very sluggish performance (DP 4.1 and OS 9.2.2 as I recall). No crashes. I upgraded to a Sonnet 1.4 GHz processor and the problem disappeared. Perhaps 667 mHz is a bit slow? BUT... if you are having problems with other apps

>DP4.12 with OSX (and Protools 6 and Roxio Toast, Jam 6 for that matter) is quite unreliable.

then I would suspect that you may have a RAM issue and/or a speed issue.

As far as journaling, that has never been a problem in any of my OS X systems with multiple internal and external drives. Perhaps for some, it may be, but you might want to test your RAM:

http://www.memtestosx.org/

watch a complete picture of CPU conditions:

http://www.gauchosoft.com/Software/X%20 ... e%20Graph/

and try your suspect files on other, working systems.

Just to be clear, are you saying that even though repeated RAM tests always pass and even though the system runs flawlwssly in OS9, that I could still be having RAM (hardware) problems?
If yes, do you know of any specific brands that are known to have issues? Again, I have two identical TiBooks. Flawless operation with DP3/OS9. Quite flawed with DP4/OSX. If this is a hardware issue, it MUST be a case of a configuration that is no longer supported (and that no one wants to admit to).
Well, obviously I believe that I'm not the one making any mistakes here (setup or otherwise), but please let me know if you think otherwise. I appreciate the help.

-JN

[MIDI Life Crisis]

> OSX/DP4 requires a faster CPU and more RAM. I, however, would perceive this as a failure on Apple's/MOTU's part.

Not really. You are certainly able to stick with the older OS and earlier version of the program, but you cannot expect to have added features, requiring incresed demands on the system in all areas, and expect to keep the same old system you used back in 1998. That is just NOT the way the computer industry works.

If that is how you want to approach this, then you are probably better sticking with DP 3.1 (or 2.7 for that matter) and Mac OS 9 - although 8.6 might work as well for you. But if you want to upgrade to more current software, there is a price to pay - and that price includes upgrades to hardware and software.

I do hope you resolve your issues and don't mean to be demeaning by suggesting you return to OS 9. But from your philosophical viewpoint, I don't think you will be happy in the post OS 9 world.

We fought Panther, then Tiger (I was also a hold out when CDs first came to market!) but technology moves ahead. If you don't need the extras, then it looks like DP 3.1 is it for you.

[giles117]

Well said. I guess microsoft messed up when the introduce Windows XP and it required you to have more memory and more Horspower to run effetively....

OS X is no diff. OS 9 is no diff. OS 9 didnt run as efficently on my old PPC 604 chip as it did on the G3 chip.

[chrispick]

You are certainly able to stick with the older OS and earlier version of the program, but you cannot expect to have added features, requiring incresed demands on the system in all areas, and expect to keep the same old system you used back in 1998. That is just NOT the way the computer industry works.

If that is how you want to approach this, then you are probably better sticking with DP 3.1 (or 2.7 for that matter) and Mac OS 9 - although 8.6 might work as well for you. But if you want to upgrade to more current software, there is a price to pay - and that price includes upgrades to hardware and software.

I do hope you resolve your issues and don't mean to be demeaning by suggesting you return to OS 9. But from your philosophical viewpoint, I don't think you will be happy in the post OS 9 world.

I think this is well put, and I hope it's received in the tone it's intended.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Well said. I guess microsoft messed up when the introduce Windows XP and it required you to have more memory and more Horspower to run effetively....

OS X is no diff. OS 9 is no diff. OS 9 didnt run as efficently on my old PPC 604 chip as it did on the G3 chip.

You want to talk about obscene OS and RAM requirments? I remember paying $300 to upgrade myAtari ST 1040 to 4 MB. That is no typo. Megabytes! And the laptop (state of the art!) maxed out at 4MB as well and cost about $2,000. (OK, maybe $1600). And there was no digital audio, no quicktime movies. Heck, Compuserve was a BBS without graphics and "true artists" were on the PAN Network. Woohoo!

Give me state of the art anytime!

[qo]

...even though repeated RAM tests always pass and even though the system runs flawlwssly in OS9, that I could still be having RAM (hardware) problems?

Yes, that's possible. OSX's kernel may be more stringent about what it considers "bad" and may (for your safety) give up the ghost where OS9 doesn't. It's generally much better to crash than to work with known corrupt RAM content since the OS has no idea what the content is and has to assume whatever it is is critical to its proper functioning. So, before even more damage is done, it crashes.

This is not to say that your problem is bad RAM since I have no idea about that. Rather, just trying to explain why it might work in OS9 vs OSX...

[MIDI Life Crisis]

well put, and I hope it's received in the tone it's intended.

Heck, if it's not, we can go get a beer and laugh it off. I'm in Burbank

[jimfisheye]

> OSX/DP4 requires a faster CPU and more RAM. I, however, would perceive this as a failure on Apple's/MOTU's part.

Not really. You are certainly able to stick with the older OS and earlier version of the program, but you cannot expect to have added features, requiring incresed demands on the system in all areas, and expect to keep the same old system you used back in 1998. That is just NOT the way the computer industry works.

If that is how you want to approach this, then you are probably better sticking with DP 3.1 (or 2.7 for that matter) and Mac OS 9 - although 8.6 might work as well for you. But if you want to upgrade to more current software, there is a price to pay - and that price includes upgrades to hardware and software.

I do hope you resolve your issues and don't mean to be demeaning by suggesting you return to OS 9. But from your philosophical viewpoint, I don't think you will be happy in the post OS 9 world.

We fought Panther, then Tiger (I was also a hold out when CDs first came to market!) but technology moves ahead. If you don't need the extras, then it looks like DP 3.1 is it for you.

I actually do tend to keep up with new technology. I run ProTools 6 in OSX and I'll be upgrading to HD very soon and I do like OSX. But come on, this remote system is only 3 years old! Upgrading to a new OS/app and going from perfectly reliable 44 track recording to not even reliable with 5 tracks!?! Sorry MOTU, that's a DOA product to me. And for the record, MOTU would not guarentee that DP4.6 fixed any of this (and it DOES smell like a bug). Nor does DP4 have any new features over DP3 for recording tracks. (New mixing features perhaps but... Protools is for mixing, DP is for recording.) I'm still open to suggestions if someone thinks I've missed something.

[Kubi]

Sorry, a bug is when a software reliably and repeatedly fails under a specific set of circumstances, under which it normally should work. With so and so many folks using DP 4.12, and 4.61 on 10.3.9 with zero problems whatsoever, your problem is not a bug. It's some hairline crack in your particular setup, and it can be figured out and fixed by you, and I'm afraid to say, you only.

First off, get more RAM. You cannot run DP4 and OS 10.3.9 with less than a gig, or a 1.5G, or better 2G. Take this first, then call us in the morning.

If that doesn't cure what ails you, your trouble could be so many things, from drivers to hardware problems (not just RAM, but FW ports, cables, etc. etc.) to a bad HD sector, to a few corrupt files in your preferences, or you're in the early stages of a corrupted OS, or corrupted DP, and need to reinstall; or whatever else you can think of...

Frustrating, yes. We all sincerely sympathize, every one of us has been there. But MOTU's fault? No.

[boonier]

ok, right, sorry but i need to moan/rant/vent

we are musicians right? therefore computers are a tool, just like a guitar, keyboard, xylophone whatever. ok imagine theres a string breaking every half hour it starts to get irritating right? (this is an analogy so stick with me right? ) I am not used to a computer interfering in my 'creative' process as much as DP does right now....

ok, we say repair permissions, reinstall this/that, Disk Warrior (which I've used) blah blah. Ive never had sooooooo much grief with keeping a DAW stable! I mean, take this as a weird example of my day:

I have a 8 bar loop (of Alexander o'neil -dont tell him!) and I want to simply beat detect, adjust to sequence tempo, then quantize the new soundbites beats, and DPs not having any of it. I mean program error alert flashing up.

Right, so to check its a consistent problem I import another loop, do exactly the same and it works fine. The loop is the same format, sample rate exactly, everything. I can only assume that DP doesn't like poor old Alexander. WTF

Believe me I dont want to moan and I wouldn't be on this forum so much if everything worked as expected (pls no offence! - i dont want to gain a reputation ). My girlfriend doesnt give a monkeys about this, nor do my mates - should I??

I also love the program when it works AS IT SHOULD. BUt I'm finding it very difficuilt to finish work because I'm constantly trying to solve a problem.

Pls forgive my incongruent use of English in this post, but I like to type as I think: the same way I like to create music.....