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Klaus wrote: Sorry, what isn't working - MCU emulation and Cuemix FX ?

Klaus

My rig is as follows:

Macbook Pro 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
OS: 10.5.8
CueMix FX 1.6 48575
DP 6.02
MotU 828mk3 connected directly to Macbook via Firewire (9-pin port @ 400Mb/s) up-to-date Firmware
Tascam FW-1082 connected directly to Macbook via Firewire (6-pin port @ 400Mb/s) up-to-date Firmware and all available drivers installed

I have successfully controlled DP6 with the Tascam, even without setting anything up in Audio-MIDI Setup. The Tascam is set to "Mackie Control Mode" as opposed to "Mackie HUI Mode" or Tascam's "Tascam Native Mode." Simultaneously, DP6 successfully uses the 828mk3, which tells me there's nothing wrong with the Tascam unit or the connections (specifically, connecting both units via firewire).

Upon reading previous posts about adding a new virtual "Mackie" device in Audio-MIDI Setup, I created a "Mackie Control" device and connected the in and out ports on the top of the new device to the FW port 1 in and out. This resulted in the new device appearing in CueMix's list of available controller devices. However, the Tascam and CueMix still don't communicate well. When I scrub faders in Cuemix, I see the MIDI out light on the Tascam illuminate, but that's all.

I have noted that within DP, the selection of control surface that works is the "control port" of the FW-1082. Unfortunately, I can't pick this MIDI option when setting up my control surface from within CueMix.

I contacted MotU and got some very irksome "answers" from "Magic" Dave Roberts:

ME: was it the intention of MotU for Cuemix to have the same level of compatibility with control surfaces as DP has?

MotU: It was not. The Mackie protocol was written for DAW control. CueMix is a different type of application that has some crossover with a DAW. The Mackie protocol supports volume and pan functions in CueMix, but it does not access the effects parameters and other functions such as audio analysis tools. We saw a way to add basic external control surface support to CueMix with the Mackie protocols, so we implemented what we could.

ME: Think of the studio owner who has invested in DP and a nice control surface, and then discovers he can't control the new Cuemix for which he bought a new Firewire I/O because of the promise of fantastic new abilities.

MotU: It's never a bad idea to check compatibility. If CueMix is not working with the Tascam, it's because the Tascam is not providing 100% Mackie compatibility. I have seen other non Mackie controllers that do work with CueMix (Behringer for example), and other devices that do not (Frontier designs)... If the control surface then does not work with CueMix, that suggests that yes the problem is the CueMix is not seeing the Tascam as a true Mackie control surface. In my experience, some control surfaces "look more like" a Mackie device than others. CueMix is more specific in it's compatibility requirement than DP.

ME: Does MotU have any plans to update Cuemix with a broader compatibility requirement?

MotU: That's a very strong possibility. We have had continuous requests for more sophisticated external control of CueMix. We have been looking at this closely. It's possible that we will implement additional control surface support for CueMix.

This conversation pretty much echos what other posters have reported: MotU acknowledges they are responsible for NOT making CueMix easy to control, and then try to blame the controllers' manufacturers for not writing their Mackie protocol correctly.

PLEASE, let's all pressure MotU to invest a wee bit of time on solving this control issue

I am currently looking for a list of CONFIRMED compatible control surfaces for CueMix FX - at least the pan and volume controls. I plan on hooking the physical MIDI ports on the back of the Tascam to those on the back of the 828mk3, but I have pretty dismal hopes.

Dave's answers look pretty reasonable to me.

the Mackie Control protocol is proprietary, and before buying a real life Mackie Control Universal i wrestled with many different Mackie Control emulations. the truth is that most MC emulations are half-baked, and generally only support a small subset of the available MC functionality, and often incorrectly. most control surfaces are advertised with "Mackie Control" capabilities, but those claims are often misleading.

frustratingly, rotary encoders are one major area of difficulty. the encoders on a real Mackie Control are endless encoders, which send relative change information, not absolute values. so if your control surface doesn't have endless encoders, it will not be able to send the MIDI information in the correct format.

special sysex commands are also a core part of the Mackie Control protocol, and most emulations do not present these properly either (if at all).

furthermore, some MIDI control surfaces only send program change, CC and Note values, and these are insufficient to properly emulate a Mackie Control.

myssinglynk wrote:PLEASE, let's all pressure MotU to invest a wee bit of time on solving this control issue

Note: This board is not here for the purpose of pressuring MOTU. FYI.

I am currently looking for a list of CONFIRMED compatible control surfaces for CueMix FX - at least the pan and volume controls. I plan on hooking the physical MIDI ports on the back of the Tascam to those on the back of the 828mk3, but I have pretty dismal hopes.

I can tell you having seen it, that when DP8 is out, an iPad running TouchOSC is going to work pretty well wirelessly. And more than one at a time.

bayswater: I would say Dave was truthful, even enlightening, but I don't find it entirely reasonable that the CueMix designers brought their product to market with very limited and vaguely documented compatibility issues. With a software/hardware solution that seems to offer such a powerful live-recording solution, how could MotU not predict that everyone would want to find a controller for it? Kinda like designing the best graphics card in the world but overlooking the fact that only very few monitors could utilize the features that make it so great .. and then not documenting which monitors were, in fact, compatible. Not very fair in my book.

fishmonkey: Sadly, while your explanation may be dead on, it doesn't help me in the least. I am not as versed in sysex syntax or MIDI minutia. Are you proposing that it is, in fact, Tascam who has misled me to believe that I could control CueMix with their Mackie emulating product? Seems unfair to blame them when MotU openly admits that their software is notably picky. Consumers are definitely being misled one way or another. I don't really care who's fault it is, but it is endlessly frustrating that more and more companies choose not to support or fix, but to simply replace products.

The Great James Steele: Sorry about that call to arms. I meant simply to encourage others who share my frustration to act on it in a productive manner to affect positive changes rather than simply commiserate with me.

By MotU's own admission, DP is much easier for current controllers to control than CueMix. Do you know of any past, current, or future controllers that are sure to control interface well with CueMix? That iPad is sure to lead to great things. Indeed, there is an Italian YouTube video that shows the AC-7 app controlling Cuemix. Does anyone have any experience using this solution? There is no way I am going to buy an iPad just to test this out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_2mA9mvvVQ

I'm hoping for one of two things: a comprehensive list of available controllers, new or used, that will at the very least give me volume control with 8 motorized faders and work with CueMix, OR for either Tascam or MotU to develop a software update that allows for such control. Or a free iPad

Unfortunately, I think your expectation that MOTU would test a whole lot of controllers on Cuemix and document which work and which don't, is very unlikely to be realized in the near term.

Maybe I missed it, but just what led you to conclude that it would work with your specific controller? Was it the statement that it works with MC and HUI emulation?

Something else I might have missed: what are you tracking to? Would your controller work with AudioDesk (which you will have if you have Cuemix).

myssinglynk wrote: fishmonkey: Sadly, while your explanation may be dead on, it doesn't help me in the least. I am not as versed in sysex syntax or MIDI minutia. Are you proposing that it is, in fact, Tascam who has misled me to believe that I could control CueMix with their Mackie emulating product? Seems unfair to blame them when MotU openly admits that their software is notably picky. Consumers are definitely being misled one way or another. I don't really care who's fault it is, but it is endlessly frustrating that more and more companies choose not to support or fix, but to simply replace products.

CueMix is not "notably picky", and that's not really a fair interpretation of what was communicated to you. CueMix expects a Mackie Control to communicate like a Mackie Control, and clearly your Tascam doesn't do that.

if you knew more about the inner workings of the MC protocol you would see that yes, Tascam has misled you, as do most manufacturers of MIDI control surfaces when they claim "Mackie Control" compatibility.

that is not so say that MOTU couldn't make it more compatible, however to do so they would have to test various half-baked Mackie Control emulations and write hacks to make them work.

myssinglynk wrote:

Klaus wrote: Sorry, what isn't working - MCU emulation and Cuemix FX ?

Klaus

My rig is as follows:

Macbook Pro 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
OS: 10.5.8
CueMix FX 1.6 48575
DP 6.02
MotU 828mk3 connected directly to Macbook via Firewire (9-pin port @ 400Mb/s) up-to-date Firmware
Tascam FW-1082 connected directly to Macbook via Firewire (6-pin port @ 400Mb/s) up-to-date Firmware and all available drivers installed

I have successfully controlled DP6 with the Tascam, even without setting anything up in Audio-MIDI Setup. The Tascam is set to "Mackie Control Mode" as opposed to "Mackie HUI Mode" or Tascam's "Tascam Native Mode." Simultaneously, DP6 successfully uses the 828mk3, which tells me there's nothing wrong with the Tascam unit or the connections (specifically, connecting both units via firewire).

Upon reading previous posts about adding a new virtual "Mackie" device in Audio-MIDI Setup, I created a "Mackie Control" device and connected the in and out ports on the top of the new device to the FW port 1 in and out. This resulted in the new device appearing in CueMix's list of available controller devices. However, the Tascam and CueMix still don't communicate well. When I scrub faders in Cuemix, I see the MIDI out light on the Tascam illuminate, but that's all.

I have noted that within DP, the selection of control surface that works is the "control port" of the FW-1082. Unfortunately, I can't pick this MIDI option when setting up my control surface from within CueMix.

I contacted MotU and got some very irksome "answers" from "Magic" Dave Roberts:

ME: was it the intention of MotU for Cuemix to have the same level of compatibility with control surfaces as DP has?

MotU: It was not. The Mackie protocol was written for DAW control. CueMix is a different type of application that has some crossover with a DAW. The Mackie protocol supports volume and pan functions in CueMix, but it does not access the effects parameters and other functions such as audio analysis tools. We saw a way to add basic external control surface support to CueMix with the Mackie protocols, so we implemented what we could.

ME: Think of the studio owner who has invested in DP and a nice control surface, and then discovers he can't control the new Cuemix for which he bought a new Firewire I/O because of the promise of fantastic new abilities.

MotU: It's never a bad idea to check compatibility. If CueMix is not working with the Tascam, it's because the Tascam is not providing 100% Mackie compatibility. I have seen other non Mackie controllers that do work with CueMix (Behringer for example), and other devices that do not (Frontier designs)... If the control surface then does not work with CueMix, that suggests that yes the problem is the CueMix is not seeing the Tascam as a true Mackie control surface. In my experience, some control surfaces "look more like" a Mackie device than others. CueMix is more specific in it's compatibility requirement than DP.

ME: Does MotU have any plans to update Cuemix with a broader compatibility requirement?

MotU: That's a very strong possibility. We have had continuous requests for more sophisticated external control of CueMix. We have been looking at this closely. It's possible that we will implement additional control surface support for CueMix.

This conversation pretty much echos what other posters have reported: MotU acknowledges they are responsible for NOT making CueMix easy to control, and then try to blame the controllers' manufacturers for not writing their Mackie protocol correctly.

PLEASE, let's all pressure MotU to invest a wee bit of time on solving this control issue

I am currently looking for a list of CONFIRMED compatible control surfaces for CueMix FX - at least the pan and volume controls. I plan on hooking the physical MIDI ports on the back of the Tascam to those on the back of the 828mk3, but I have pretty dismal hopes.

I'm confirming that the BCF2000 *IS* working with Cuemix FX,
faders
pan
mute
solo
phase
bank of 8 / individual channels switching
switching in / out mode

and maybe more

Use MC-C mode...

It's in the BCF2000 manuals

Best

Klaus

CueMix is not "notably picky", and that's not really a fair interpretation of what was communicated to you. CueMix expects a Mackie Control to communicate like a Mackie Control, and clearly your Tascam doesn't do that.

Dave said "CueMix is more specific in it's compatibility requirement than DP" and that's all I was referring to.

if you knew more about the inner workings of the MC protocol you would see that yes, Tascam has misled you, as do most manufacturers of MIDI control surfaces when they claim "Mackie Control" compatibility.

I don't think the average (or even above average) consumer should have to know a ton about the inner workings and code involved in writing the software/firmware/protocols they buy. Just like someone who buys a car should not be expected to know what a cam shaft is or the specifics of transmission fluid viscosity.

I feel that what has happened here is that I had a great SUV (DP) that pulled a trailer, but the SUV was old, so I bought a really great truck (CueMix) from the same company. This truck is more powerful than any other and has all the bells and whistles. But, neither the truck maker nor the trailer maker has a hitch that will join the two .. and neither does anyone else .. and the only way I could have found this out was to buy the truck and try it.

Maybe I missed it, but just what led you to conclude that it would work with your specific controller? Was it the statement that it works with MC and HUI emulation?

Actually, to be fair, MotU's website only claims that CueMix is controllable with a Mackie Control Universal Pro, but the documentation also provides a guide for using the non-Pro MCU, HUI, and Baby HUI. They never say it supports emulators. HOWEVER, Mackie emulation is a widely adopted feature that allows software that is built to work with non-Mackie gear. How was I to know that not all emulation protocol is written the same way? I was not aware that each gear manufacturer had to concoct their own emulation code - it seemed like it was a pretty universal thing, like shareware. So, when a recipe calls for eggs, and a product says "this will work in the place of eggs" why should I not trust them? Do I have to be an expert baker? Mmmm ... cake.

But enough grousing. Klaus, THANK YOU for starting things off!
I will see about getting my hands on a BCF2000 to try it myself. Does anyone have any experience with other control surfaces and can confirm what works and what doesn't? Baby HUI? Mackie Control Universal (NOT Pro)? AC-7 Core on an iPad? Others? I'm waiting to hear back before I buy another surface. Being that the BCF2000 is only $200 or so new I am likely to pick that up if nothing else, but there have been eBay sales of both the Baby HUI and the older, non-Pro MCU that are in my ballpark (up to $500). The Tascam was about $270 and I was SO disappointed to find out it would not do what I needed.

Thanks all. I really appreciate this forum. Please be patient with me.

Klaus wrote:I'm confirming that the BCF2000 *IS* working with Cuemix FX,
faders
pan
mute
solo
phase
bank of 8 / individual channels switching
switching in / out mode

and maybe more

Use MC-C mode...

It's in the BCF2000 manuals

Best

Klaus

Klaus, where are the BCF2000 manuals? I've come across a couple of cryptic web pages, but never found anything that could be called a manual.

myssinglynk wrote:Do I have to be an expert baker?

well ...., yes, you do !

Does this help? It only took one Google search.... it came out top of the search.....

http://www.behringer.com/assets/BCF2000_P0246_M_EN.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(tip, try User Guide rather than Manual in searches)

Cheers

Stephen

btw I used to have one of these which worked fine... since sold with its manual on eBay once I got first a Mackie, and then a Euphonix............

stephentayler wrote: btw I used to have one of these which worked fine... since sold with its manual on eBay once I got first a Mackie, and then a Euphonix............

When you say you got a Mackie and then a Euphonix, can you tell me specifically what Mackie it was and whether it worked to control CueMix?

I think you've said before that the Euphonix (predecessor to the AVID Artist MCMix) works with CueMix, but they are hard to find, even used, for under $800.

I'm now trying to figure out whether I should just get an iPad. Hard to beat the value, what with all of its obvious utility well beyond what we're talking about here. Plus, it's the hot thing for product designers and there will surely be great things coming soon using touch tech. Boy would I love to hear directly from a person who has had success controlling CueMix - like in the Italian video tutorial using the AC-7 Core app Ilinked to previously.

Hey James Steele, any chance you've heard of that TouchOSC app for iPad you mentioned being used with CueMix? Or that it can work in a non-wireless configuration? TYVM!

stephentayler wrote:Does this help? It only took one Google search.... it came out top of the search.....

DOH !! Yes, thanks. I've had a BCF2000 since they came out, downloaded everything I could find, and had completely forgotten about this document. At the time, I was unable to use this info to figure out how to get my BCF to do much more than volume and pan. Others obviously have done it, so I guess the problem is me.

My original Mackie Control Universal (not Pro) worked fine with CueMix. It was all a while ago as I have been using MC Mix for four years now.

The Euphonix MC Mix does a great job of faders, solos, pans and mutes....... oh and sends too..

But I am very excited about the CueMix app for the iPad..... now that will be a useful item. MOTU already made the great DP Control app.

Cheers

Stephen