Did Radiohead change the record business forever?

[stickwolf]

The library analogy is interesting. You can even take home videos and cd's free there these days.

As far as sunsets, this is not a performance so that doesn't work AFAIC.

My point about sunsets isn't about the human economics, but simply that you CAN'T judge anyone's feelings of inherent value by their money habits. Any social observer can see that people constantly waste money on things they don't really care about and appreciate lots of free things. You can hate this aspect of human nature, or lament its impact, but it shouldn't be denied.

The library is a MAJOR factor to consider actually. It is the kink in any copyright argument that focused on money. If you really want to be hard-line about each "consumer" paying for their reading / listening whatever, then you are going to have to come out against the public library. This analogy is real, not imaginary. The real question is, whatever free-downloader you might criticize, would you support and suggest that they go to the library, and would you then feel better? Nobody would make any substantial more money. If downloading legally for free is not ok, but going to the library is, then it would be useful to identify to ourselves: what's the difference?

Furthermore, what about downloading illegally? Is it only bad because it is against the law? Is it bad because the creator didn't give permission for it?

The library question always comes into play! Would copyright hard-liners suggest that libraries should have to get permission from copyright holders to lend their publications??

I actually saw an argument in which such a hard-liner suggested it was unethical to lend a book to a friend. Some people are consistent enough to go that far in their views. As far as I'm concerned, if someone come out against the public library system, then I cannot possibly agree with them.

Public libraries are among the best aspects we can possibly point to in our modern society. They enable and educate everyone with full equal access! They promote knowledge, art, understanding! I think MORE people should use the public library system! If everyone borrowed CDs, DVDs, and books from the public library and only purchased when they really wanted more than to just read, watch, or listen a couple times... well, the economic impact of that is worthy of discussion. However, is it a bad idea? If one doesn't like this scenario, would they be suggesting that they'd like to discourage library use? There is no way out of this issue. If we support public libraries and encourage everyone to use them... well, the economic issues must clearly be dealt with on a social scale, and not by attacking individual library patrons for their "cheapness."

Maybe if only the number of CDs or books to fulfill a world of library users were ever sold... maybe the price would have to be higher, and library funding would need to go up. Maybe endowments and grants to artists and musicians is what's needed. Maybe concerts and t-shirts are what should be the basis of a musician's income... These are all complicated questions, but NONE of these issues lie on the shoulders of the individual consumers. If you think it should, then, as I say, you are going against the public library and that sort of socialized free access to information and art. Some people are that extreme. I disagree with them strongly though.

[Timeline]

Well I'm glad you mentioned the libraries but most don't include large inventories of cds other than classical which are there for learning.

If libraries grew that out to contemporary then that would be interesting and likely you would hear flack from the artists that were offered. Doubt that will ever happen though.

Anyway as far as I'm concerned, performance on CD and live are totally up the the artists discretion and should be policed as per their wishes.

It's a creation substantially of their minds and talents, not freeware until they give it away.

[stickwolf]

How is a CD any different than a book?

Irrespectively, MY local public library has a VAST selection of popular music, and though it may be a bigger, better library than average, I bet you'd be very surprised to find that YOUR local library is nothing like your old stereotype. You will find all sorts of modern music, probably including Radiohead at many if not MOST public libraries today.

I just checked: my local library has SIX different Radiohead albums, along with the string-quartet tribute CD.

Again, what's the difference between CDs and books? You wouldn't suggest that some overbearing library council determine that only stuffy educational materials should be included and to select what qualifies are you? And you wouldn't actually suggest that every author or musician should be offered to opt-out of the library system, thereby denying their work's availability to the library public? That's not an extreme viewpoint, but it sure would be a major shift in current view of the library system...

[Timeline]

Go give your music away, I don't care but if an artist spends his time and money expecting a return, it's his license and NOT your freeware so give it up dude.

The difference is in a library you only have a few available at a time as opposed to a wall of them. The cost of writing a novel is a single persons reflections, time and lifeworks but not expensive. I bet if you ask any publisher though they would tell you the book would have to have the potential to SELL or you would never get it published. After the money is made I can see artists and writers alike placing them in libraries to keep them in the public eye. That's marketing and smart and again their choice. If a library does no get a release to do so they could be sued you know.

The out of pocket cost is not even close to producing a CD if you really explore the per man hours, gear and pressings and art production involved and required.


You seem a very anguished person here stickwolf. Why do you care?
Music must be compensated if the artist wishes it so.

[stickwolf]

You're right about the current realities of publishing. But that doesn't mean it is the only possible reality.

Why do I care?
I care for the same reasons you do. I'm nervous about the whole status of the economics of recorded music, particularly as to how it relates to my own career. At one point, I was much more confident in the idea of making money selling my recordings whether that was independently or through a traditional route eventually involving labels and complex business.

However, I think we must face these bigger economic and social issues if we are to deal with this honestly.

The library economic model has room for more than single copies of books or CDs. Within some budget, socially determined due to public funding, they purchase a number of copies that generally meets library demand. That means a long wait sometimes on the newest items, but after that initial period, everyone has pretty easy access. If an item is popular enough to have an ongoing (not just initial) long wait list, then they buy extra copies.

The point is exactly the opposite of your "whatever you want, dude" response that makes the issue all about me as an individual. The point is that this is clearly a major SOCIAL issue, that must be discussed and dealt with as such. Laws, and industry-wide practices have to be worked out.

Here's the next step with the analogy: consider, for discussion's sake, that illegal file sharing is economically comparable to a major society-wide shift toward library use. Some illegal sharers do buy the album anyway, just as libraries would buy more if they all of a sudden had much more demand. But the sales numbers are not major.

For now, I'll stop at the following questions:
As far as we in the industry, trying to be ethical and socially responsible, but needing to make a living and pay for recording expenses...

Would my library example be any different to us versus online file sharing?
If it is not much difference to us, then let's talk about what to do about it, but drop discussion of legal issues, enforcement, the inherent value or respect of music, or even technology issues - these aren't there in the library model, and if there's still a problem, then obviously it is not one of legal or respectful, technological issues.

If you think wider library use is different than file-sharing in how it would affect us economically, well, how? why?

[Timeline]

I don't see any point to continue this either

[James Steele]

I only had time to skim much of this, but as far as using libraries as an analogy I would like to say this: Currently, if I want to borrow a current Top Seller from my local library rather than BUY IT, there is some hassle involved. My local library often won't have it. If they do have it might be checked out. I have to get a library card. I have to drive to the library branch. There are a myriad of real HASSLES involved with borrowing a book from the library.

Now imagine if you will, that suddenly there was a technology that allowed me to get on my computer and for FREE, on the day of the release of a new book, I could click a button and in seconds that book would magically appear on my kitchen table. It wouldn't be hardcover... it would be paperback with a generic cover, but essentially it's the same book... the content is there word for word. Also once I downloaded it, I could make copies in seconds and give them to all my friends? "Hey, have you read the latest John Grisham book? No? Here... have a copy on me!"

The problem that music faces is that it was the first "victim" of filesharing THEFT. It was something people wanted. They heard it on the radio for "free" (because it was supported by advertising), so why not just download it. With the bandwidth limitations in the early days of the internet, music was what everybody stole. I find it amusing that the TV/movie people seemed content to watch the music business bleed until DVDs got cracked, things like bit torrent surfaced, and suddenly THEY were at risk.

I guess back to the original point, borrowing a book at a library is still a low risk proposition for book publishers. Nobody's going to scan a physical copy and then print out 600 pages. And fact of the matter, reading a book from a text file on a computer screen STILL sucks wind. Who wants to read an entire book on a computer screen? Not many.

[SixStringGeek]

The problem that music faces is that it was the first "victim" of filesharing THEFT.

Second. Software was first.

Well, it just continues to get harder to make a buck any more, doesn't it?

No, it is easier than ever for a musician to make a buck because the big record companies no longer have a lock on distribution. It is getting harder to make a million bucks on one song though. I think that's good. I think the million dollar artists are maybe less happy about it though.

They heard it on the radio for "free" (because it was supported by advertising), so why not just download it.

Question for you - and please - I'm not trying to confrontational at all. Have you ever played in a cover/top-40 band (I'd guess yes - who hasn't) and, if/when you did, did you buy every single song your band played to learn it, or did you tape stuff off the radio to learn it? I'm curious about your thoughts on whether a working musician is OK to tape stuff off the radio for purposes of learning.

[James Steele]

Why that's not confrontational... said the witness to the District Attorney... LOL!

Generally, SOMEONE in the band, or their wife/girlfriend had a CD/LP/cassette. However, yes... at some point or another we passed around copies to band members to learn the songs rather than take turns one at a time with a stack of materials.

So good job...you got me. Slap the cuffs on and ignore everything I've said to this point.

[James Steele]

No, it is easier than ever for a musician to make a buck...

I guess, yes, technicallly a buck or two. It's easier than ever for aspiring musicians to join the ranks of the working poor. Basically the overall theme is that the music business seems to be about the ever-shrinking middle class. There seem to be the "Britneys" and then there seem to be everyone else. The larger acts can survive despite piracy... for the time being. Just like larger software companies can stay in business. But who this tends to hurt most are the smaller enterprises.

[leigh]

An interesting alternative business model is ArtistShare.

http://www.artistshare.com/

Selling recordings is no longer viable; selling access to the creative process may be.


**Leigh

[stickwolf]

Well, James, you're very right about the reading on a computer issue.

But I'm sorry to see that you apparently aren't making use of the modern public library system. Getting a library card is easier than getting a computer. It really can be done immediately in under 5 minutes. Additionally, you don't have to go to the library anymore and wonder if the book or CD is out. You go to the library website, request the item, as soon as it is available, you get an e-mail. Then you stop by and pick it up. You can request dozens of things at once. I currently have from the library a pile of guitar books to evaluate for students and some CDs to check out, and a number of items on my hold list on my library account. Books that the local library doesn't have can be requested and delivered from any library in the state with a quick online request. With a short online posting, I can even request from any library in the country.

No, this is not as simple as just downloading music for free. However, the amount of hassle is actually virtually the same as the hassle of going down to the local CD store, in some cases less. And yet it is free.

At any rate, are you saying libraries are acceptable only because they are inefficient enough to discourage many people? That you wouldn't be happy if libraries got so efficient as to get wide-spread use?

The real point is that maybe people's cheapness, issues of legality, and even issues of technology are not the root of the issue. If you agree with me that libraries are good, and therefore accept that it would be good for them to be more efficient and get even more widespread use... well, if you agree with those things, then we still have the open question of how do we musicians make a living?? But ethically if we support libraries, it is clearly not a question of demanding individual payment by listeners.

My point is simply that we need to be open to exploring other means of economic survival as musicians if we don't want to go down the anti-library, limit access, sort of intellectual path. We need to accept that people listen to music without paying for it and figure out how to make this WORK anyway, rather than blast people's cheapness just because that's the easy target for our financial frustrations.

Sorry to sound like I'm lecturing... I sincerely am hoping to have useful, open discussion and debate about these issues. I myself am very concerned to find solutions as to how to continue making a living within the real world we now are dealing with. I just don't want to go against my ethical values which include appreciation for and support for public libraries and what they represent.

[James Steele]

Well some of that would have to do with the fact that in many cities, the "modern public library system" sucks. Anything I want to read tends to be specialized. We have a main library in downtown San Diego... pain in the ass to get to and park, but that's the only library that you have a prayer of finding something more specialized in.

I had a library card years ago. I can't see the point of getting one again any time soon.

[stickwolf]

Well some of that would have to do with the fact that in many cities, the "modern public library system" sucks. Anything I want to read tends to be specialized. We have a main library in downtown San Diego... pain in the ass to get to and park, but that's the only library that you have a prayer of finding something more specialized in.

I had a library card years ago. I can't see the point of getting one again any time soon.

James,

Please be open minded and hear me out...

You can easily search ONLINE for any item you are interested in, CD, DVD, or book, and then automatically request it to be DELIVERED for you to whatever is the most convenient local library branch (if it is available it will be ready sometimes the next day)! There is no requirement to go to the main branch and search, you can just have anything from any branch delivered to your closest branch and held just for you behind the counter. And you can request items even if they are out, and they'll notify you as soon as they are ready for you. You can probably find a lot of the specialized interests you have within the whole library system.

Here is a list of a very large number of San Diego library locations:
http://www.sandiego.gov/public-library/locations

If those aren't good for you, here's the San Diego County Library listings:
http://www.sdcl.org/locations.html

In addition to either of these, you can request inter-library loans from the State Library of California, or even from anywhere in the country or world. Search over a *billion* items at:
www.worldcat.org

Any book you find there (not usually CDs or DVDs for inter-library though) can be requested to be delivered to your local neighborhood library branch with a simple online form at your district library's website. I bet a very large number of the books you would ever care to read are available this way. And it is all free.

The library did not fall behind, but is keeping up with and making the best of the internet world. You're only cheating yourself if you refuse to make use of something your tax dollars are already paying for.

I hope you find this useful. Rejecting it before trying is a bit like someone saying "Oh, guitar is so hard, I'd have to practice and there's so much hassle... I had some lessons once and they weren't any fun. I don't see the point." You wouldn't just accept that as a reasonable attitude, would you?

Best,
Aaron

[James Steele]

Dude... I understand where you're coming from. But if it's something I want to read enough, I get on Amazon.com and have it delivered to my house. I don't get in my car, drive to a branch to pick it up, then drive back to return it. To each their own.